Lawende's trade

[Fleetwood Mac]

I agree Fleetwood..........since he got Eddowes right on the nose...(sorry bad phrase there)....maybe he's quite a good judge of height........on the other hand, knowing that the average Whitechapel woman was probably 5' to 5'2", maybe he just pulled an average out of the air. I tend to go with the former...

The question then becomes ............could this short, rough sailor be BS man...........?

Greg

Or Blotchy - the fair fella.

Or even Hutchinson. Mind you our 'military appearance' man might not square with the 'rough looking' fella.

Just my simple logic:

1) Blotchy is the only man seen in her home.
2) She is killed in her home.
3) Therefore Blotchy is a decent suspect.

Even more so that apparently he's moving around 'noiselessly', which could be the advantage that meant he took what appears to us to be unnecessary risks.

I always liked Blotchy for poor old Mary. The reason being he's in her home, and with a quart of beer he's going nowhere in a hurry.

[GregBaron]

Good guess sir?

The other thing about this is that as Levy was right about Eddowes' height, then it lends weight to having the man's height right, which would squarely put the oft cited short man back in the frame.

I agree Fleetwood..........since he got Eddowes right on the nose...(sorry bad phrase there)....maybe he's quite a good judge of height........on the other hand, knowing that the average Whitechapel woman was probably 5' to 5'2", maybe he just pulled an average out of the air. I tend to go with the former...

The question then becomes ............could this short, rough sailor be BS man...........?

Greg

[Fleetwood Mac]

The other thing about this is that as Levy was right about Eddowes' height, then it lends weight to having the man's height right, which would squarely put the oft cited short man back in the frame.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Fleetwood,

I'm assuming you are referring to the Telegraph clipping found in the Met files?

Tom Wescott and I discussed this at some length a few years back and the conclusion drawn was that it was a misreporting of Lewande and Cos sighting.

I don't recall a club in St James place (though I freely admit I'm working from memory here) though there was The Jewellery Mart pub.

Monty

That's the one, Monty.

It would explain why these men weren't called to the inquest.

[Monty]

Fleetwood,

I'm assuming you are referring to the Telegraph clipping found in the Met files?

Tom Wescott and I discussed this at some length a few years back and the conclusion drawn was that it was a misreporting of Lewande and Cos sighting.

I don't recall a club in St James place (though I freely admit I'm working from memory here) though there was The Jewellery Mart pub.

Monty

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hmmm, but imagine the man Lawende saw was Kosminski, and he recognised him again at the Seaside Home because the image had stuck fast. Would the man's Jewishness have come as an uncomfortable surprise to him? Seriously?

Can't see it myself.

Love,

Caz
X

Wasn't he supposed to have acknowledged that he was the man but wouldn't testify against him?

I don't buy it at all.

You'd just say: "naaahhh, not him" rather than risk the wrath of the police by saying: "oh aye, that's the fella, but f you".

And, I don't go along with the 'Jew wouldn't shop a Jew' theory. I'm sure it's a matter of personal ethics.

And to answer the question: no, he would have been well aware he was Jewish from 9/10 feet away with the description he gave.

But then I don't fancy a Jewish fella for this!

[Fleetwood Mac]

Mr. Carle, the manager of the club in St. James'-place; Mr. Ayres and Mr. W. Isaacs, also of St. James'-place; or Mr. S. Goldberg, of Duke-street, who were all awake at the time, heard no suspicious sound - no cry for help whatever. [/I]

Monty

Problem being that Swanson talks of the two men coming out of the club, Monty.

According to the article I read, the two men in the Orange Market/St James gave a similar description to Lawende, and perhaps this tipped the balance away from Levy in Swanson's mind; although I'm confused as to how someone/anyone could see the corner of Church Passage/Duke Street from the Orange Market?

Edited to add: the article didn't state standing at the corner, rather actually in Church Passage.

[caz]

Significant event...once he realised he may have seen Jack the image could well have stuck with him.

In terms of Jewish, not many will have been 'fair'.

Hmmm, but imagine the man Lawende saw was Kosminski, and he recognised him again at the Seaside Home because the image had stuck fast. Would the man's Jewishness have come as an uncomfortable surprise to him? Seriously?

Can't see it myself.

Love,

Caz
X

[Monty]

There's a report (admittedly newspaper) of two men observing JTR, with Eddowes, from the Orange Market (half 1ish).

Could these be Swanson's two men? Probably not as he mentions them coming out of the club. Still, it's intriguing why he said two men coming out of the club, when there were three, and the two of the three men who gave descriptions didn't agree on height!

Something that may intrigue you Fleetwood.

I came across it last night.


East London Observer
Saturday, 6 October 1888


What People Say.

Both murders must have been accomplished with an almost unnatural amount of secrecy, and without a cry being heard from either of the victims, judging from the statements made by those who were within a few yards of the place at the time. Neither Morris Eagle, a Russian Jew, Isaac M. Kazebrodski, a Russian Pole, or Abraham Heshburg, who were in the International Working Men's Club at the time, Barnett Kentorrich, whose house (No. 38) adjoins the yard on the south side, Mrs. Mortimer of 36, Berner-street, who was standing at her door between half-past twelve and one o' clock, Charles Letchford, who passed through the street at half-past twelve, or Mrs. Deimschitz, wife of the steward of the club, who was preparing tea and coffee in the kitchen about a dozen yards away at the time, either heard or saw anything unusual in Berner-street. Similarly, Morris, the night watchman of the warehouses in Mitre-square; Pearce, the constable who was sleeping in the house just opposite the scene of the murder; Mr. Levy, the caretaker of the Great Synagogue just by the square; Mr. Klapp, the caretaker of some other premises whose windows look on the scene of the crime; Mr. Carle, the manager of the club in St. James'-place; Mr. Ayres and Mr. W. Isaacs, also of St. James'-place; or Mr. S. Goldberg, of Duke-street, who were all awake at the time, heard no suspicious sound - no cry for help whatever.

Monty

[Adam Went]

Just playing devil's advocate here, I would suggest that the comparison between statements of Lawende, Levy and/or Harris, is of somewhat less importance than the comparison of statements between the most detailed of the 3, being Lawende, and those of the Berner Street witnesses, particularly Israel Schwartz.

Being a Pipeman as JTR theorist, i'm struggling to reconcile the near 6 foot tall Pipeman to the barely 5 foot tall Lawende/Levy suspect.....hmm...

Cheers,
Adam.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Imagine Lawende being sought out, years after the event, to try and 'identify' Kosminski as the man he saw with Eddowes.

Significant event...once he realised he may have seen Jack the image could well have stuck with him.

In terms of Jewish, not many will have been 'fair'.

[caz]

Imagine Lawende being sought out, years after the event, to try and 'identify' Kosminski as the man he saw with Eddowes.

Firstly, he said at the time that he doubted he would recognise the man again.

Secondly, he is brought face to face with a man he does recognise as clearly Jewish, which appears to throw him somewhat.

Not surprising if his vague to non-existent recollection is of a Gentile in a sailor's cap. No wonder he isn't going to identify this Jew as the probable murderer.

But this reaction may have been mistaken for confirmation that he recognised the man but then had second thoughts about saying so formally on account of him being a fellow Jew - which always sounded a duff note to me. How the devil could Lawende have recognised the man again, but not known he was Jewish until the second encounter?

Love,

Caz
X

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hunter,

The description of the man seen by "two men coming out of a club" (19th Oct report).

If you didn't know that Levy had stated 5'3, then the above would strongly suggest two men gave the same description.

Whichver way you look at it, it's inaccurate; two men (Lawende and Levy) did not give that description. The only explanation that would guarantee the accuracy of the report is that the two men were Harris and Lawende.

To me, it is bizarre that a senior policeman would make such a schoolboy error of taking one description and suggesting it was agreed upon by someone who clearly didn't agree.

Particularly given the importance of the sighting to the investigation, and the potential to send everyone scampering off looking for a fella of 5'7' when it was clearly possible that Levy was correct and he was 5'3.

[Hunter]

In his Oct. 19 Home Office report, Swanson probably mentioned two men sighting Eddowes and a man at the entrance to Church Passage because it was two (Lawende and Levy) who testified at the inquest and Harris would be irrelevent for such a report... or he was not aware of Harris at that time (although I doubt that). He gives, not only the height of the man described by Lawende, but the general description as well. That was what was circulated around the City and Met Departments. His purpose at this point was to compare this sighting with those at Berner St. in a report on the Berner St. murder.

In Swanson's Nov. 6 report, which summarized the Metropolitan Police's activities concerning the Mitre Square murder, he does mention 'Three Jews' that left the club and goes into more detail about the other two taking
'little notice' and the positions of the man and woman at Church Passage as seen by Lawende. All of this within a time line spelled out by Swanson on relevant persons pertaining to that particular murder.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Fleetwood & SH:

Yes, you're right, and not only did two of the men not agree on height but Levy and Lawende had a slight disagreement on the exact time they left the club as well. Not a major discrepancy but worth pointing out.

One wonders if the man they saw wasn't in fact known personally to Harris and/or Levy, but not to Lawende, which would explain some of the strange behaviours afterwards.

Cheers,
Adam.

I suppose an alternative explanation is that they were both inaccurate, and the fella with Eddowes was about 5'5 (two inches out from both witnesses seems a plausible variance).

What would be the statistical chances of recognising him? I suppose it doesn't matter how tightly packed into an area, you have only so much time in your life to make friends and meet people. Was it something like 80,000 people crammed into the Whitechapel/Spitalfields area?