Schwartz, a fraud?

[Bridewell]

As for the "Lizzie" debate, "Lipski" having been Schwartz' "nickname" and whatnot, please! Abberline was real experienced in the Whitechapel environment and interviewed Schwartz numerous times on this, also at the request of the HO. It makes sense to trust him on the meaning of "Lipski".

Hi Maria,

I take the point, but I posted what I did in the context of the thread, which proposes the possibility of Schwatrz's account being fraudulent. If fraudulent, there must have been a motive for its being so.

I'm aware of the suggestion that there may have been a desire, on the part of some, to draw attention away from the IWEC. However, the Stride murder occurred right outside their premises so (a) how likely was that to succeed? and (b) how would the creation of an additional (fictional) violent event at the same location around the same time achieve that end?

Regards, Bridewell.

[mariab]

Like I said, in Hungarian there's a possibility that "dagger" and "pipe" can be mixed up acoustically (esp. if someone pronounces/hears the initial "t" and "s-tsch" similarly), in spoken or (written) Yiddish, NOT a chance.

I agree that Abberline might have had a Yiddish translator (possibly even a member of the IWEC) vs. the Star's (documentedly bad) Hungarian translator.

[lynn cates]

assessments

Hello Maria. Well, a report I read indicated that Schwartz was more likely to have seen the killer than PC Smith.

On the other hand, the local station were not enthusiastic. (Yes, I believe that was in the "Star.")

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Debs and Colin,

You might try comparing the Yiddish to Hungarian for knife and pipe, since the Star reporter's translator and Schwartz's friend was apparently speaking in Hungarian, and Abberline's might have worked in Yiddish.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Debra A]

Interesting and imaginative idea, Bridewell and Debs. To my ears and eyes “tőr“ {“te-er“} and “cső“ {s-ch-e-e“} don't sound too similar, unless the Star translator was hard of hearing and in a hurry.

Pass me the cotton buds someone. My ears obviously need a good clean-out.

[moonbegger]

Greg[/QUOTE]

Sorry Abby but I have to disagree here. 99% of all humans are cowards. People have been assaulted time and again in broad daylight in major cities and no one does anything. It's the same mentality that allows millions of Germans to look the other way when the Jews are being sent to the death camps. For Schwartz to have gotten involved would have been an exceptional action. Besides, a woman being assaulted in Whitechapel was probably commonplace...........


Hi Greg ,

i find this " 99% of all humans are cowards " malarkey, very interesting .. So here is my question to you Greg ,
If YOU was walking down the street and you saw a woman or a child for that matter being attacked or beaten by a man .. Would you ( A ) make some attempt to help ( B ) Stick around and make some verbal interjection , until someone else intervene or (C) Run away and hide .. I would be very interested to see your answer .
And just for your information Greg .. Millions of Germans Didn't look the other way .. They really had no idea ( propaganda can be a powerful tool )

Cheers ,
Moonbegger .

[mariab]

The upper echelon at the Met put great faith in Schwartz; the local coppers, not so much.

Hello Lynn. Just saw this. Do you have evidence for such an interpretation (apart from the Star and the Police Gazette reports)?

[mariab]

Does anyone has any knowledge of Hungarian - or indeed Yiddish? It would be interesting to know what (if any) word might be translated (or mistranslated) as either 'pipe' or 'knife'.

Interesting and imaginative idea, Bridewell and Debs. To my ears and eyes “tőr“ {“te-er“} and “cső“ {s-ch-e-e“} don't sound too similar, unless the Star translator was hard of hearing and in a hurry. (Which he might have been, after all.)
In spoken Yiddish "knife/dagger" and "pipe" sound completely different, but the Star translator documentedly spoke Hungarian with Schwartz.

Thanks for the cool translator tool by the way, Debs. VERY helpful for rare languages like Hungarian, esp. the acustic feature.

Quite true Lynn. {...} yet personally I consider it unlikely that Schwartz fabricated or his translator had an agenda...

The possibility that Schwartz was related to the IWEC has been considered since years. As Tom and Lynn know and have suggested on numerous occasions, there's even strong circumstantial evidence for this. Incidentally, I'm researching this and plan to prepare an article at some point during the summer.

As for the "Lizzie" debate, "Lipski" having been Schwartz' "nickname" and whatnot, please! Abberline was real experienced in the Whitechapel environment and interviewed Schwartz numerous times on this, also at the request of the HO. It makes sense to trust him on the meaning of "Lispki".

[Bridewell]

If Schwartz was a fraud, there must have been a reason for the deception. It could have been financial, but I doubt if he could have anticipated making sufficient money to justify the risk that he might be required to perjure himself at inquest.

Just by way of speculation, there is a suggestion that ES may have been waiting for someone. What if she was waiting for Schwartz? Depending on which account you read, he has either BS Man or Pipeman shouting, 'Lipski!' Is it possible that another Jewish man, living a couple of streets away from where Israel Lipski had lodged, and sharing his forename, might have been nicknamed 'Lipski' and that it was, in fact, ES herself who called out to him? If he was furtively seeing another woman behind his wife's back, I could well understand his running from a situation which could prove highly embarrassing. His subsequent story would provide an innocent explanation if anyone had overheard the word 'Lipski'.

I emphasise that the above is no more than hypothesis, but the nature of the premise postulated by this thread invites such speculation.

Having said all that, I've read Fisherman's earlier suggestion that the word 'Lipski' could have been a mishearing of 'Lizzie' and can't discount that as a possibility.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Debra A]

Hi Debs,

I think they sound very similar - different initial sound but, phonetically, I think they rhyme and I can imagine one being mistaken for the other.

Regards, Colin.

Exactly what I thought too, Colin. Thanks.

[Bridewell]

Dagger & Pipe

Hi Colin,
I wondered the same a while back.
if you go here:
translator

Put in knife, then pipe and press the speaker icon after each written translation and you will hear (and see) that the Hungarian for both objects is not similar at all. But, if you compare the pronunciation of dagger and pipe, they are quite similar sounding...to my ears at least.
Let me know what you think.

Hi Debs,

I think they sound very similar - different initial sound but, phonetically, I think they rhyme and I can imagine one being mistaken for the other.

Regards, Colin.

[lynn cates]

pressure

Hello Greg. Thanks.

Of course, the IWMEC was watched by the Met and were under considerable pressure.

Cheers.
LC

[Debra A]

Does anyone has any knowledge of Hungarian - or indeed Yiddish? It would be interesting to know what (if any) word might be translated (or mistranslated) as either 'pipe' or 'knife'.

Regards, Bridewell

Hi Colin,
I wondered the same a while back.
if you go here:
translator

Put in knife, then pipe and press the speaker icon after each written translation and you will hear (and see) that the Hungarian for both objects is not similar at all. But, if you compare the pronunciation of dagger and pipe, they are quite similar sounding...to my ears at least.
Let me know what you think.

[GregBaron]

Classic 60's...

Hello Greg. Actually, I prefer "Danger Man" myself.

Good one Lynn. I suggest we rename Casebook to "Mission Impossible"...

I was demonstrating that Schwartz's story could be bogus and yet he not personally have lied.

At any rate, I had not mentioned conspiracy. Sometimes, two people act together; other times, not. Whether they do or not must be ascertained based on certain criteria. One can neither rule them in nor out a priori.

Quite true Lynn. This I can't deny yet personally I consider it unlikely that Schwartz fabricated or his translator had an agenda......

Sorry. i disagree. You see an apparently innocent woman getting attacked by a stranger and that stranger then insults you and you run away. To me, and any reasonable person i think would find those actions as cowardly.

Thats why if IS is lying about anything, I think it might be about Pipeman who turns into knifeman to help alleviate his less than brave actions.

Sorry Abby but I have to disagree here. 99% of all humans are cowards. People have been assaulted time and again in broad daylight in major cities and no one does anything. It's the same mentality that allows millions of Germans to look the other way when the Jews are being sent to the death camps. For Schwartz to have gotten involved would have been an exceptional action. Besides, a woman being assaulted in Whitechapel was probably commonplace...........


Greg

[Bridewell]

Translation

How about 'Swiss Man', since he apparently had a knife that could also be used as a pipe?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Does anyone has any knowledge of Hungarian - or indeed Yiddish? It would be interesting to know what (if any) word might be translated (or mistranslated) as either 'pipe' or 'knife'.

Regards, Bridewell