Schwartz, a fraud?

[mariab]

Wow, thanks Lynn. (And the title of your post cracked me up.)

[lynn cates]

Never on a Sunday, well . . .

Hello Maria. Try Sunday.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Cris, when we've discussed this in the past we sorta concluded that Warren and Anderson might have been misinformed/forgetful. Or that Schwartz's (translated) testimony was subpoenaed at the inquest and kept away from the press.

Cris, was September 30, 1888 a Friday or a Saturday?

[Hunter]

Just a question to throw out.

What is to be made of the reports by both Anderson and Warren that impled that Schwartz did give testimony at the inquest?

[Cogidubnus]

Shrewd questions Michael...and I ask myself the same...

To me it's odd there's all this activity going on with broad shouldered man throwing Lizzie about (and her screaming three times - but quietly???), and pipeman appearing, and Lipski being shouted, and Schwartz being chased off down the street...and yet no other witness down the whole street can properly confirm it...

Then there's the differences between his statement to the police and his statements to the press (though to be fair the press may've "sexed up" his testimony)...and Schwartz's non-appearance at the inquest...

I don't know Michael, but to me he's suspiciously over-willing to come forward (ok difficult balance...'cos not being too willing to come forward can be viewed the same!)...to me, although there's no proof, the above plus the possible connection with the club say his testimony should be treated, at least, with some reserve

Dave

[Michael W Richards]

Thanks for the responses Bridewell and Maria.

As to Stephen's questioning Maria, It would seem most police were comfortable with Israel from the outset, where do you get the impression some questioned his veracity? Aside from myself of course...

My questions stem from the belief that any witness would have their address and general story particulars checked out before they would back a statement. Since it was his moving day I would think his address at the days beginning would be as relevant as his new address. I think they also should have learned how long he was in London. Can we say that we have any idea, based on existing documentation, that Israel himself was checked out? Do we know if Mrs Schwartz verified his story? "Of theatrical appearance" is all well and good for a physical description, but was he employed or unemployed? Was he used by the Police as a pseudo "carrot" for the killer?

And again, why would he come forward willingly when he portrays himself as being intimidated and frightened by the men he says he saw? There is no indication as I recall that he was offered or accepted any protection.

Best regards all,
Mike R

[mariab]

Just a feeling. Referring both to what the Star claimed, to the fact that Swanson felt the need to include in his report (paraphrasing) “There's no reason to doubt the witness' testimony“ (as if the question had already been raised), and the fact that Schwartz avoided the press very carefully. (With help from others? From the police? From Wess, who was interviewed about Schwartz in The Echo/The Scotsman?)
Haven't had the time to compare how often Lawende appeared in the press vs. Schwartz. But compared to Mortimer, ouch!
Plus, we don't really know why Schwartz is not listed at the inquest.

[Stephen Thomas]

which accounts for the police having been suspicious of his testimony initially.

Like how?

[mariab]

Does anyone recall reading anywhere the address that he was moving from?

From “Berner Street“ unspecifically. Either he didn't say which house number (which I very much doubt) or he gave it to the police and we don't have record of this. There's a possibility he and his wife were temporarily living at the IWEC, which accounts for the police having been suspicious of his testimony initially.

Or how long he had been staying in London? Perhaps someone has located him in earlier census data?

As far as I know, noone has located Schwartz in the 1881 census. If anyone has, it'd be nice if they came forward. If he lived at the IWEC, it's most plausible that he had recently moved to London.

I've not been able to find him in the 1891 census when he might be expected still to be in the UK.

There's an Israel Schwartz researched by Gavin Bromley and Chris Phillips who lived nearby, but was from Russian/Polish extraction, not Hungarian.
There's a Nathan Schwartz with a son named Israel. Interestingly enough, the Hungarian anarchist orator Schwartz connected to William Wess in 1902-1905 is listed in a secret French police report as “N. Schwartz“. (Though in another police report the exact same anarchist is listed as “A. Schwartz“.) I'm planning on looking through Jewish databases later on. I don't subscribe to Ancestry presently, later on. My search in the Arbeter Fraint for the relevant years (1902-1905) (in Yiddish), proved fruitless, as they avoid to mention members by name.

PS.: Roy Cordyroy has recently found an interesting match for an anarchist “A. Schwartz“ by the way.

[Bridewell]

Does anyone recall reading anywhere the address that he was moving from? Or how long he had been staying in London? Perhaps someone has located him in earlier census data?

Thanks in advance,
Mike R

Hi Michael,

I've not been able to find him in the 1891 census when he might be expected still to be in the UK. I have also checked 1881 (without success) but I'm not aware of any suggestion that he had arrived by then. I don't know if anyone else has enjoyed greater success.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Michael W Richards]

Prior residence

Hello all,

I was thinking about witnesses who are afraid to come forward and it struck me that "Fleeing Incontinently" Israel was quite brave to have come forward at all considering that his Broadshouldered Man and Pipeman had a good look at him and his new street address made the papers.

The Immigrant Jew who spoke no English, who was on the street outside a club for Immigrant Jews, (many of whom spoke no English), shortly after a public meeting had ended, stated via translation that he was checking to see if his wife had finished moving what must have been very meager belongings to their new digs on Ellen Street. At 12:45am. He had been gone since noon.

Does anyone recall reading anywhere the address that he was moving from? Or how long he had been staying in London? Perhaps someone has located him in earlier census data?

Thanks in advance,
Mike R

[lynn cates]

reasons

Hello Colin.

"However, the Stride murder occurred right outside their premises so (a) how likely was that to succeed? and (b) how would the creation of an additional (fictional) violent event at the same location around the same time achieve that end?"

Well, it seems to me that:

1. They were more than happy to have a tale that cried, "Drunken, domestic brawl."

2. They were more than happy to have a gentile as the villain, one who was discourteous enough to hurl an anti-semitic racial slur.

Cheers,
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Bridewell,

Schwartz's evidence gave the police two non-Jewish suspects - Pipeman and BS Man.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

Hello Bridewell,
The "Lizzie" debate is pretty old. No idea who initially came up with this in Ripperology.

(a) how likely was that to succeed?

Well, it did succeed up to a significant point. "Lipski" was very instrumental to this in my opinion (in Abberline's and the HO's interpretation).

(b) how would the creation of an additional (fictional) violent event at the same location around the same time achieve that end?

I'm not considering the possibility that the BS/Pipeman event was necessarily entirely fictional. Please remember that Pipeman fits a suspect's physical description who was also a member of the WVC, who documentedly had approached the IWEC to use their rooms for meetings. This is still being researched, though I'm having several specific thoughts.

[Bridewell]

Mine Too!

Pass me the cotton buds someone. My ears obviously need a good clean-out.

Hi Debs,

Mine too - and my wife's who also heard the two words!

Regards, Bridewell.