Schwartz, a fraud?

[Michael W Richards]

Hi, Mike,

If the woman seen was Kate Eddowes then I entirely agree.

Regards, Bridewell.

One of many $64,000 questions Bridewell.

Best regards,

Mike R

[Bridewell]

If

Hi again,

In fact Lawende, Levy and Harris passed the couple 10 minutes before she was found dead, so in terms of timing, if that was Catharine, the man with her almost certainly is the one that killed her. Taking into account the time to reach the murder site and then do all that was done to her. She was killed within 5 minutes of that sighting. Israels story has Liz attacked 15 minutes before she is found with a single cut. Its not hard to imagine someone could have met up with her after 12:45am to do the deed, and she could have been cut and left in one or 2 seconds. Kates killer took minutes to mutilate the body. So Lawende technically has the sighting that occurs closest to the estimated time of the actual murder than any other witness of any other Canonical murder.

Best regards,

Mike R

Hi, Mike,

If the woman seen was Kate Eddowes then I entirely agree.

Regards, Bridewell.

[mariab]

Schwartz "discredited"?

I'm sure his absence at the inquest had more to do with preserving the evidence of their primary witness. It is certainly not because he had become a discredited witness, as some have suggested.

Just to clarify: Despite my suggesting that Schwartz' testimony was possibly not entirely truthful and, more importantly, might have been related to a decision by William Wess (as will be discussed in an article), I'm NOT claiming in ANY way whatsoever that Schwartz “had become a discredited witness“ in October 1888. There is evidence for some hesitation/suspicion by the police (as reported by the Star and expressed indirectly in Swanson's report), but I don't see Schwartz' missing from the inquest as a direct consequence thereoff.
In my opinion, Schwartz' missing from the inquest could be explained through a host of reasons:
- The fear for a reaction in Whitechapel due to the inflammatory racial slur "Lipski" (compare this to the erasing of the GSG). For this reason,
- Schwartz' translated statement might have been subpoenaed at the inquest but not reported about in the press.
- The police's interest in preserving their witness, added to the possibility that
- The witness himself might have strongly denied, out of fear, to come forward at the inquest, which might have even led to the eventuality that
- Schwartz might have even gotten scarce before the inquest.

Comparing this to the Tabram case:

Although Barrett was called as a witness at the inquest, it was only in his role as first constable on the scene. He was not asked to discuss the soldier with whom he spoke at 2am, nor give a description of him, even though doing so might have 'shaken something loose' in the press since his attempts at identification at the Tower had failed. In short, although no one questioned Barrett's honesty, had he not also been first cop to the scene, he would not have been called to the inquest at all. This was a Metropolitan Police thing, and might make for a more fitting comparison with Schwartz then how the City Police handled their witnesses.

In my interpretation, PC Thomas Barrett not being questioned about the soldier waiting outside of George's Yard for "a chum who went off with a girl" compares to Mortimer, not to Schwartz. It's a question of relevance. I'm saying this without having yet read up enough to be absolutely sure that Pearly Poll did NOT appear at the Tabram inquest, but I assume that she didn't (as I don't see her listed in the casebook inquest file), and that she was a discredited witness after her repeatedly failed attemps to identify the soldier allegedly seen with Tabram?
This is a good example of how Pearly Poll does NOT compare to Schwartz pertaining to credibility. I'm suggesting that Schwartz remained a credible witness, until he (plausibly) disappeared at some point (possibly even pre-inquest, but more plausibly later on) and was not available, unlike Lawende.

For some reason, the Met (and Swanson, in particular, if I recall properly) were not too keen on PC Smith. Seems that his sighting was earlier than IS.

Yes Lynn. In his notes listing the different witnesses, Swanson compares PC Smith to Schwartz and concludes that the man PC Smith saw was too early to be the killer.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi again,

In fact Lawende, Levy and Harris passed the couple 10 minutes before she was found dead, so in terms of timing, if that was Catharine, the man with her almost certainly is the one that killed her. Taking into account the time to reach the murder site and then do all that was done to her. She was killed within 5 minutes of that sighting. Israels story has Liz attacked 15 minutes before she is found with a single cut. Its not hard to imagine someone could have met up with her after 12:45am to do the deed, and she could have been cut and left in one or 2 seconds. Kates killer took minutes to mutilate the body. So Lawende technically has the sighting that occurs closest to the estimated time of the actual murder than any other witness of any other Canonical murder.

Best regards,

Mike R

[Fleetwood Mac]

Lawende and company saw a woman and a man at the entrance to Church passage only ten minutes before she was discovered by PC Watson. She had already been murdered and mutilated. Fairly narrow time-frame I would think.

And PC Smith sees Stride approximately 15 minutes before the estimated time of death.

Lawende identifies Eddowes by her clothes; PC Smith is confident he saw Stride. Also, he's a policeman.

So, weigh it all up and PC Smith was in at least as good a position as to have been deemed to have been 'the only man'.

There's just not enough to convince me that Lawende was exceptional....and so 'the only man'.

[lynn cates]

It's about time.

Hello Mac. For some reason, the Met (and Swanson, in particular, if I recall properly) were not too keen on PC Smith. Seems that his sighting was earlier than IS.

Cheers.
LC

[Hunter]

Lawende and company saw a woman and a man at the entrance to Church passage only ten minutes before she was discovered by PC Watson. She had already been murdered and mutilated. Fairly narrow time-frame I would think.

[Fleetwood Mac]

There is a problem with Lawende in that he probably saw Eddowes 10 minutes before the murder. That makes him no more the 'only man who ever saw the murderer' than PC Smith.

That is why I would discount him as the witness. It just isn't enough to distinguish him from other witnesses.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Bridewell. I'm not sure that Schwartz saw it that way, since he willingly spoke to a Star reporter, and I don't think the police or coroner would have been concerned with Schwartz's reputation. I'm sure his absence at the inquest had more to do with preserving the evidence of their primary witness. It is certainly not because he had become a discredited witness, as some have suggested.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Michael W Richards]

Tom,

Your comment regarding Fanny Mortimer, in the context of this thread, made me realize that the absence of Israel and Fanny suggests that the Police may not have seen the need to present evidence of nothing happening. No-one saw Israel or BSM or Pipeman on the street at all, no corroboration, and Fanny never said she heard or saw anything happening outside the gates at 12:45am. I believe the Inquest was intended to address the manner or cause of death, not specifically the time of death. In this case as in the other Canonicals, that was Willful Murder by parties unknown.

That would also mean that Liz was out of sight at that time.

Best regards,

Mike R

[Bridewell]

I don't see why that would be, since Schwartz's testimony would have implicated a tall fair haired man and an apparent anti-Semite.

His testimony would also have revealed what some would see as his cowardice.

Regards, Bridewell

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Garry,

I still don't see that the police placed too much importance on Mortimer. They figured they had time of death in the bag without her.

Hi Bridewell,

I don't see why that would be, since Schwartz's testimony would have implicated a tall fair haired man and an apparent anti-Semite.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Bridewell]

Non-Appearance

Hi All,

Might the reason for Israel Schwartz not being called to give evidence at the Stride inquest be the same as that which caused Warren to have the GSG erased - fear of stirring up anti-Semitic hostility? On the face of it, Schwartz saw JtR in the act of attacking one of his victims and ran away when he could have gone to her assistance. The truth may not be as simple as that, but that's how the Jew-hating element would probably have portrayed it. I'm not surprised he kept a low profile.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Michael W Richards]

Hey Hunter,

Thanks for responding to the post. Ill see if I can address some of your concerns. Sorry this may be longish.

"I believe you and I are in agreement about Mrs. Mortimer. What she didn't see during her vigil is important in establishing time-lines. The problem is... it contradicts your hypothesis about an earlier discovery of the body. If Kozebrodski and the others went out to raise the alarm at 12:40, or even 12:45, she would have seen or heard the commotion when she arrived at her door during those 10 or so minutes she was there shortly before 1 a.m. She heard Diemshitz's cart and the commotion that followed after she went back inside, shortly before 1."

Im glad we agree in part, but in actuality, according to the statements given to the police the very morning of the murder, only Kozebrodski at around 12:40 left for help, alone. By Louis's insistence..hence Louis and cart were already there. My bet is that they had arrived before PC Smith saw Liz with someone, and before Fanny began her time, off and on, at her door. Fanny may have heard it later being taken away to unload it in George Yard. All she had to miss was 1 man, Isaac leaving. I suggest that there was no activity outside the gates to see at 12:40. What was happening according to those statements is that members inside were gathering in the passage around the woman.

"Then there's Goldstein himself (and he does corroborate Mortimer's timing)... He walks past the club near 1 o'clock and sees nothing. If Spooner and the others were already gathered around the body (and you can bet there was a crowd) Goldstein and Mortimer would have seen it."

Ill bet Goldstein did see something inside the gates and was "shooed" away by people there, thats why when Fanny saw him look into the passage he was hurrying past the gates. Lets not forget that Goldstein had a black bag of empty cigarette cartons and inside that passageway lived cigarette makers, some of which were awake at the time. My theory also suggests that Eagle lied and likely Lave. Of course we are talking about Club affiliated people. The first people that would be suspected because the murder occurred on their property while members were known to be there.

"Regardless of who had watches or not, a 15 or twenty minute earlier timeline just doesn't fall into place or fit the evidence. Kozebrodski, himself, (who spoke very little English) helped find PC Lamb and Lamb stated that this was around 1 a.m. Even Brown, who claimed to have seen the victim with a man at 12:45 stated that he had been indoors for 15 minutes when he heard the shouting."

Kozebrodski did not say he left around 1am, he said Louis asked him to go get help when he was called down to the passage, about 10 minutes after arriving back to the club at 12:30am. Issac found no-one and returned to the club near 1am, as Eagle was returning at that time with a policeman. Im fairly certain Brown did not see Liz, but as I said, I believe no crowd had spilled out into the street before 1am. So his timing on hearing the commotion is fine.

"Even Heshburg... If he actually heard a police whistle around 12:45, then everyone who followed, Lamb, Smith, Johnston and Blackwell were off their timings considerably."

What Im suggesting doesnt affect any police arrival times or medical expert times. Isaac said he found no-one, and he said he left alone, that means Eagle and Louis and his partner left soon after. Louis and perhaps another member with the surname Issacs didnt see Spooner until they were doubling back, perhaps around 12:45. Eagle arrives back with the Police just after 1am. Thats the point when any audible commotion occurs, and Fanny and Brown hear those sounds.The only issue is the Police whistle...and how are we to know if he actually heard one or if so, whether a policeman was blowing it?

What is needed to see my perspective is a baseline that suggests when the body was found, sometime around 12:35-12:40ish, the only reaction was hushed concern for the possible implications on the club. My guess is that Louis, Eagle and others were around the body considering how they could exonerate themselves from any complicity in her death. Israel Schwartz's story is the eventual answer. They also send men out for police. When those men arrive back, one with a cop, that's when the louder commotion starts...just after 1am.

Hope that explains the premise better.
Best regards,

Mike R

[mariab]

We know Lawende was still living in London at the time; we don't know where Schwartz was or even if he was available at such a late date. Lawende was a well planted citizen of the community. Schwartz could have been one of the many transient immigrants who eventually moved on.

I'm entertaining similar thoughts, including the suspicion that Schwartz might have briefly gone into hiding and/or changed his first name. As you know I've been researching this, and I'm not convinced that the Russian/Polish Israel Schwartz living in proximity to Berner Street in 1891 is our Hungarian Schwartz.