Witnesses are no use in JtR case

[Wickerman]

Jon,

I studied Irish (a thousand years ago) and I don't agree that it would be a simple mistake to make because McCarthy wouldn't have made such an error,

Hi GM.
You lost me, why do you suggest McCarthy wouldn't have made such an error?
What error?
I am not suggesting McCarthy did not know the family's name, we have no comment from McCarthy referring to the Keyler's/Kellegher's.

Abberline sat with Lewis and she apparently mentioned the family name. Abberline, being a Londoner seems to have misheard Lewis's pronunciation due to her possibly strong Irish accent.
The only other occasion where the family name was mentioned was by the Evening News where the reporter is telling us about the Irishman Gallagher (Kellegher?) and his family.

That being said, I would suggest that it does make sense for the Gallagher name to have been sounded out by the ignorant as Gaylor or Kaylor, and Then spelled Keyler.

Ok, thankyou, would this also apply to Kellegher in your view?

There is no easy transition for me from Gal a her, which is already an anglicization to a Kee ler pronunciation. FRom Keeley another Irish name to Keyler, I would buy in a heartbeat.
Mike

The above bit is where you lost me again.

Incidently, what 'did' you mean when you previously asked if I read what I wrote?
There wasn't anything wrong with it that I could see. I was offering a solution not dictating a solution. Something didn't appear to make sense to you?

Regards, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

Mike, I referred to you as Wickerman in last post.

Hello Siobhan.
So just to clear up any misunderstanding, are you saying you agree with what I last posted, the opinion of Gareth (Sam) 3 years ago?

"Edit: I'll bet their real name was "Kellagher"... variously spelt "Kelleher", "Kellaher", "Killaher" and "Keliher"... and variously pronounced "Kellyher", "Kaylaher", "Kayler" and "Keeler"... and easily confused with (the more familiar?) "Gallagher".

http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.p...&postcount=253

That is to say the family name at 2 Millers Court was very possibly Kellagher (as opposed to Gallagher) and may be the origin of the mispronounced Keyler?

Thankyou, Jon S.

[The Good Michael]

I would have put 'Ta' in front, but no problems.


Mike

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

The problem with Irish surnames is when you look at the REAL Irish with its slender and broad vowels and lenition and you get stuff like Cailleach becoming O'Cailleigh or some such thing. It's a twisted mess and I don't study it anymore, but I love the country like me own mither.

Mike

Mike, I referred to you as Wickerman in last post.

"Brón orm".
Phonetic pronunciation in English: brone urum.
The Irish words in quote marks above mean "Sorry!" in English but maybe you already know this.

[The Good Michael]

The problem with Irish surnames is when you look at the REAL Irish with its slender and broad vowels and lenition and you get stuff like Cailleach becoming O'Cailleigh or some such thing. It's a twisted mess and I don't study it anymore, but I love the country like me own mither.

Mike

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

Jon,

I studied Irish (a thousand years ago) and I don't agree that it would be a simple mistake to make because McCarthy wouldn't have made such an error, That being said, I would suggest that it does make sense for the Gallagher name to have been sounded out by the ignorant as Gaylor or Kaylor, and Then spelled Keyler. There is no easy transition for me from Gal a her, which is already an anglicization to a Kee ler pronunciation. FRom Keeley another Irish name to Keyler, I would buy in a heartbeat.

Mike

Hi folks,
There are 32 counties in Ireland and each one has a different accent when speaking English. The strongest accents are from Kerry, Cork and Limerick (towards the South) and also in any of the Northern counties. I went out with a guy from Mayo (west of Ireland) when I was a youngster and we had to have a go-between-cum translator (from Mayo English into Dublin English) on each of our dates because I didn't have a clue what he was saying when I was on my own with him. In other words, his accent was so strong, I couldn't get a handle on it! County Dublin - only a few hundred miles from Mayo - has the least strong accent in all of Ireland as we are so close to mainland Britain.
To further ram home my point!...Many Irish soccer players play in mainland Britain's Premiership League these days and on Saturday nights when I watch the television highlights, I hear British sports' commentators mispronouce the Surnames of all the Irish players they mention. On the one hand it's funny to hear but on the other, it's a bit annoying that they cannot even get the pronunciation of simple Irish Surnames correct. If this type of mispronunciation is true today, then it was true in 1888.
Sorry Wickerman, I can absolutely buy into the idea that the name was mispronounced after its first translation into "London" English. Also, I can speak adequately in the Irish language but don't see how it's relevant here.

[The Good Michael]

Jon,

I studied Irish (a thousand years ago) and I don't agree that it would be a simple mistake to make because McCarthy wouldn't have made such an error, That being said, I would suggest that it does make sense for the Gallagher name to have been sounded out by the ignorant as Gaylor or Kaylor, and Then spelled Keyler. There is no easy transition for me from Gal a her, which is already an anglicization to a Kee ler pronunciation. FRom Keeley another Irish name to Keyler, I would buy in a heartbeat.

Mike

[Wickerman]

We had a similar debate back in 2008, I forgot that Sam saw the same comparison, on reflection I think Sam got it right when he corrected himself...

"Edit: I'll bet their real name was "Kellagher"... variously spelt "Kelleher", "Kellaher", "Killaher" and "Keliher"... and variously pronounced "Kellyher", "Kaylaher", "Kayler" and "Keeler"... and easily confused with (the more familiar?) "Gallagher".

http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.php?p=49685&postcount=253

A more satisfactory result.

[Ben]

As Heinrich has pointed out, Gallagher does not sound like “Keyler”, no matter how much you stretch it. One could conceivably be converted into the other through Chinese-whispering and second or third-hand hearsay, but not as a result of a direct mishearing of what the other person said. It doesn’t matter if you’re pronouncing Gallagher in Irish or English – the result doesn’t sound anything like Keyler. Ga-llager/Ga – llaher versus Kee-ler. It doesn’t work at all. It certainly doesn’t compare to the other examples of mishearing you’ve referred to. “Ear” sounds very much a cockney “‘air”, while Carter and McCarthy share the emphasized “car” syllable.

“In which case a Londoner hearing Gallagher rendered as Kellegher, or Keyleher, and writing Keyler is not beyonds the bounds of reason.”

I’m afraid I think it is, and in any case, it would have been Abberline who took Lewis’ statement, and he was not a "Londoner" any more than Sarah Lewis was Irish. If Lewis heard Gallagher, she would said Gallagher, not Keyler.

Regards,
Ben

[Ben]

Hi Jon,

By “women concerned” I was obviously referring to the women who attempted to parrot off Lewis’ account as their own, of which there were apparently half a dozen. We don’t know who all of them were, but we can safely say that Mrs. Kennedy was one of them. I’m quite aware that Lewis never spoke to the press, which counts immeasurably in her favour as an honest witness.

“Nothing to be gained by anyone hypothetically copying Lewis's account”

This wasn’t the impression formed by the journalists who actually interviewed the women concerned:

“The desire to be interesting has had its effect on the people who live in the Dorset-street-court and lodging-houses, and for whoever cares to listen there are a hundred highly circumstantial stories, which, when carefully sifted, prove to be totally devoid of truth."

From 10th November 1888.

We have no record of any women repeating the “Oh murder” detail in isolation from any other aspect of Lewis' story, so it can’t have been this detail ONLY that was repeated. Evidently therefore, Kennedy copied the full account of Lewis; an observation Philip Sugden would agree with:

“By the time the Star’s man got the scene of the crime her story had gone round and “half a dozen women were retailing it as their own experience”, a circumstance which may explain why Sarah’s story is sometimes credited, aberrant forms, to a Mrs. Kennedy in the press”

[Wickerman]

Gallagher is indeed an Irish name, Wickerman, specifically from County Donegal. The effect of the h is to render the g silent so that the name is pronounced by the Irish as Gallaher. There is no way this would ever sound like Keyler, I'm afraid, when spoken in a Irish accent. The English, on the other hand, have a habit of disregarding the h aspiration in such Irish names, thereby, in the case of Gallagher, pronouncing it as Gallager or, again, in the case of Callaghan as Callagan.

I am quite prepared for opinions to contest my suggestion, but I might assume you are not speaking from the perspective of a 19th century Cockney who no doubt was the one recording the name in question.

Remember how Barnett's reference to recognising Kelly.." and I identify it by the ear and eyes,", who would argue that the word "ear" should not have been "hair"?

On a similar vein anyone today might not think "Cartin" could be confused for McCarthy, but it apparently was
"...alley known as Cartin's court in Dorset street."

Then similarly, but equally not the same we have "Carter" for "McCarthy".
"There are about eight houses in the court. The houses are chiefly tenanted by the poorer class of Irish people. The landlord of Carter's-court keeps a chandler's shop in Dorset-street."

This case has several instances of mispronounced and misspelled names, you should at least acknowledge that. In which case a Londoner hearing Gallagher rendered as Kellegher, or Keyleher, and writing Keyler is not beyonds the bounds of reason. However, rather than insist it was, I did suggest anyone contesting the idea should consult someone with linguistic training.
My exposure to phonetic discussions is more limited to Semitic languages, Ugaritic texts, Canaanite, and of course Biblical Hebrew, but more informed with Egyptian hieroglyphic.

Incidently, thankyou for the reference to Donegal. My wife was from County Claire and my father from County Cavan.

How a Londoner would render a foreign name when given in a foreign accent is entirely open to question. What has been argued here is that Gallagher did not even exist, and predictably, completely without foundation. But of course we are familiar with this strained and dubious methodology, what contradicts the "speculation" is immediately dismissed.
And there are apparently no limits to this modern deception.

Regards, Jon S.

[Heinrich]

....
...I can tell you without the slightest reservation that the name Gallagher is distinctly Irish, and that in the colloquial Irish accent the phonetic rendering of Gallagher comes across as Keyler, the 'gh' being almost silent.
... Keyler, to an English ear, could very probably come from Gallagher, spoken with an Irish accent.

Gallagher is indeed an Irish name, Wickerman, specifically from County Donegal. The effect of the h is to render the g silent so that the name is pronounced by the Irish as Gallaher. There is no way this would ever sound like Keyler, I'm afraid, when spoken in a Irish accent. The English, on the other hand, have a habit of disregarding the h aspiration in such Irish names, thereby, in the case of Gallagher, pronouncing it as Gallager or, again, in the case of Callaghan as Callagan.

[Wickerman]

No journalist interviewed Lewis, Jon.

Oh I know that!.. but you obviously did not last night when you responded with...

Yep, you guessed it – the journalists who actually interviewed the women concerned.

That was YOU who said that was it not?, I mean we were not imagining this.

Unfortunately, it appears she did speak to a few unscrupulous women – Kennedy amongst them – who attempted to pass Lewis’ account off as their own.

Nothing to be gained by anyone hypothetically copying Lewis's account, the only "repeating" that was commented on was the cry of "Oh, murder", and the time it was heard, nothing more.
And we have your Star reporter to thank for this specific point, no mention of Wednesday night stalkers, or Friday morning walkers...., just the cry and the time it was heard.

Fortunately, this was recognised by a Star journalist and, not-so-amazingly, the copycats were discredited in advance of the inquest.

Oh I'm sure the police thanked your buddy for all his help. Good thinking by Abberline?, to enlist the assistance of the Star in unravelling these confusing details.

The idea that Lewis was not the original source of Lewis’ account is obvious nonsense.

Not an idea, as I said, "In fact, it could be argued that Sarah Lewis...", which it "could", because the evidence both for and against this possibility is entirely ambiguous, however, when they are seen as the same woman the point is mute.

As for the notion that Lewis only repeated press accounts, this is impossible, and I’d respectfully ask you to at least think about this one for a moment to understand why. Lewis’ egress from Miller’s Court was prevented by the police on the morning of 9th November until she provided her evidence. This was provided that same morning, well in advance of the Kennedy claims.

None of your subsequent points have any bearing on the issue if Lewis & Kennedy were the same woman.

[Ben]

“So you are saying the journalists who interviewed both Lewis & Kennedy have assured their readers that the two witnesses were not the same woman?”

No journalist interviewed Lewis, Jon.

...Which speaks immeasurably in Lewis' favour.

This is evident from Lewis’ total non-communication with the press. It means she observed and respected the strict reticence evidently requested of her by the police, and that she did not blab to the press. Unfortunately, it appears she did speak to a few unscrupulous women – Kennedy amongst them – who attempted to pass Lewis’ account off as their own. Fortunately, this was recognised by a Star journalist and, not-so-amazingly, the copycats were discredited in advance of the inquest.

The idea that Lewis was not the original source of Lewis’ account is obvious nonsense. Lewis appeared at the inquest, and the women who blabbed to the press and attempted to plagiarize her account did not – Kennedy amongst them. As for the notion that Lewis only repeated press accounts, this is impossible, and I’d respectfully ask you to at least think about this one for a moment to understand why. Lewis’ egress from Miller’s Court was prevented by the police on the morning of 9th November until she provided her evidence. This was provided that same morning, well in advance of the Kennedy claims.

Lewis came before Kennedy, irrefutably so. Kennedy copied Lewis’ evidence, and the former's claims were accordingly discredited pre-inquest.

We have no idea if Kennedy gave a police report. It was only reported in the press that she did so – it could have been a bogus claim on the part of Kennedy herself. Even if Kennedy did provide a report, it cannot have been accepted, or else she would have been called to the inquest.

“As they both were visiting the same address at roughly the same time it is quite reasonable to suppose they are one and the same person. She only gave the name Kennedy to the press, but Lewis to the police.”

No, it is far more reasonable to accept what the contemporary press stated. Kennedy was not Lewis, but rather someone who had learned of Lewis’ account – first-hand or otherwise – and who then attempted to pass off the account as her own. This was precisely the state of affairs described by a Star journalist on the 10th November, and, for what it may be worth, is the explanation Sugden appears to accept. All this stuff about “Gallagher” sounding a bit like “Keyler only reinforces my observation, and that of the original Star journalist. “Mrs. Kennedy”, that thieving discredited magpie evidently copied Lewis’ account, but “lost” a few details in translation, and what an excellent case in point. Lewis said “Keyler”, Kennedy heard “Gallagher”, and the "Chinese Whisper" was sold to the press.

[Wickerman]

Do you actually read some parts of your posts before you hit "Submit Reply"?

What part don't you understand?