Jack and the Grapestalk

[Scott Nelson]

Mud on her hand coated with blood -- grapes. The clay in Dutfield's Yard was a smectite variety, which tend to ball up when disturbed.

[Fisherman]

You are doing yourself an injustice here, Tom; what I always said was that your piece in Ripper Notes was full of ingenuity and good thinking - but that your conclusion on how Strides hand became blood-stained was totally wrong.
As for the "grapes", I think you are spot on, and I fail to see any other reasonable explanation than the one you offered.

The best,
Fisherman

[Tom_Wescott]

No, he's not kidding. And let's not forget that Diemschitz appeared at the inquest and did not state he saw any grapes. That solely comes from the press reports taken in the hours immediately following the murder. There are two possibilities:

1) No one mentioned grapes and the press misreported. Or, more likely...

2) In the dark the blood clots on her wrist, combined with her partially closed hand, gave the impression she was holding grapes.

I was surprised to see Fisherman endorse my idea since I thought he had previously poo-pooed it.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Simon Wood]

Hi Fisherman,

You're kidding me. Right?

Regards,

Simon

[Fisherman]

Bloodstained shirts and Batty Street lodgers aside, if we return to the issue of the thread - them grapes - the explanation that Tom Wescott offers in his Ripper Notes article is - at least to my mind - a very good one.

It´s the mystery of the bloody right hand all over again; when Strides right hand was eventually lifted from her body, with Diemschitz and Kozebrodsky as bystanders, it had on it clots of blood. In the flickering light on the crime scene, these clots very probably mistaken for grapes by the two men. Interestingly, what this tells us is that the clots described by the doctors (they were apparantly mainly situated on the back of the hand, though the inside of the wrist was also bloodsmeared) were probably about the size of human fingerprints.

The best,
Fisherman

[Simon Wood]

Hi Debra,

Thanks. Yes, MJ Scanlon's a good match. I haven't yet subscribed to Examiner, so didn't know Tom had already mentioned him.

Regards,

Simon

[Debra A]

On 10th May 1888, Michael John Scanlan, described as a private enquiry officer, appeared on a charge of fraud at Marylebone police court. On being cautioned, he had said, "I will go [to the police station], and when we get there ask for Sergeant Record and Inspector Measures, as I know them." On 16th May, having been refused bail, he was acquitted. If he's the same man he would seem to fit in nicely with Le Grand's particular line of work.

It's all in there somewhere.

Regards,

Simon

That's the same man I picked out as probably being Le Grand's Scanlan, Simon.
It's briefly mentioned in Tom's article.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Debra,

It's going to be a while before we find out how Le Grand fitted in, but what we do know, however tenuous it appears at the moment, does suggest some sort of unofficial and "off the books" arrangement with Scotland Yard. Not that it allowed Le Grand to call in any favours in the matter of his conspiracy charge for which he received two years hard labour. How this arrangement worked with Anderson allegedly in Switzerland at the time of the double event is anyone's guess. Maybe the SB ledgers will give us a clue. Somebody had to be paying him.

On 10th May 1888, Michael John Scanlan, described as a private enquiry officer, appeared on a charge of fraud at Marylebone police court. On being cautioned, he had said, "I will go [to the police station], and when we get there ask for Sergeant Record and Inspector Measures, as I know them." On 16th May, having been refused bail, he was acquitted. If he's the same man he would seem to fit in nicely with Le Grand's particular line of work.

It's all in there somewhere.

Regards,

Simon

[Debra A]

Hi Debra,

What a pair of exploding brainiacs we are.

Try adding this to the equation.

At the Old Bailey, 24th June 1889, George Lewis, a solicitor consulted during the Ripper case, stated that "I have seen Grandy [Le Grand] at my office, not in connection with this case [conspiracy], but as a private detective in connection with the Parnell case . . . it did not come to my knowledge that he had been employed by Mr. Soames, nor do I believe it—I do not know that he had been shadowing Pigott and Mr. Labouchere; I do not believe it . . ."

George Lewis, who had interviewed Pigott in the company of Parnell, did not say that Le Grand was not shadowing Pigott and Labouchere; merely that he did not care to believe it. But if Le Grand's story was true this puts him in company with the RIC, two of whose officers–Sergeants Fawcett and Gallagher–let Pigott to slip through their fingers, and Robert Anderson who, it was believed by the press and others at the time, connived to allow Pigott's escape. Anderson then despatched two of Littlechild's officers–Inspector Patrick Quinn and Sergeant Richard Owen–to arrest him in Spain.

Talk about six degrees of separation. We've still got a long way to go, but I'll bet you a tenner to a Snickers bar that, somehow, the JtR phenomenon was inextricably bound up in the political intricacies of the Special Commission, which makes for a very good reason why it's still a state secret almost 122 years after the event. And if certain people have their way, it will remain a secret.

Regards,

Simon

Hi Simon,
I've been interested in that aspect of the Le Grand case for about three years when I first saw a brief article mentioning that Le Grand claimed to have been employed by Lewis on the Parnell Inquiry as a private detective.

The Old Bailey transcripts weren't available at that time so it was impossible to flesh any of this account out. The Old Bailey transcripts, when they came online gave the name of Scanlan, another private detective who accompanied Le Grand to see Lewis and had a letter of introduction from the Irish Times.
The quote you cite above is part of Lewis's denial that he employed Le Grand I think isn't it? Although he does admit that he saw him in his office. The part he does 'not believe' is I think refering to the fact that Le Grand may have applied to Soames and got work with him.
James Hall, Le Grand's clerk confirmed that he had spent at least one night in the company of Le Grand watching Justin McCarthy MP at his house at Cheyne walk, one of the 'accused' named in the Parnell inquiry papers I believe?
As the Parnell Inquiry is so complicated it's something I've not dug too deeply into, I've read books by Justin McCarthy and Labouchere but I can honestly say I'm still none the wiser how Le Grand fits in...if at all.

[Phil H]

Thanks,

Phil

[Simon Wood]

Hi Phil,

George Lewis worked the legal case for Parnell and also gave evidence at the Special Commission.

The case I referred to at the opening of my post can be found here -

http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/brows...-563#highlight

Regards,

Simon

[Phil H]

Also this from Wikipedia, to give dates and context:

Lewis was born at 10 Ely Place, Holborn in London and educated at University College, London.

In 1850 he was articled to his father, James Graham Lewis (1804-1869), founder of Lewis & Lewis, one of the best-known firms of solicitors in the city of London.

George was admitted in Hilary term in 1856, and was subsequently taken into partnership by his father and uncle. He first made his name in prosecuting the directors of the Overend and Gurney Bank, who had caused the disastrous panic of 1866, and for a time he devoted special attention to financial cases.

In criminal cases he drew public attention to himself by his cross-examination in the Bravo case in 1875, and from that time onward was connected with most criminal "causes célèbres," being conspicuous in the prosecution of fraudulent persons like Madame Rachel and Slade the medium.

Among other cases may be mentioned the Hatton Garden diamond robbery case; Belt versus Lawes; and the Royal Baccarat Scandal, in which the Prince of Wales was called as a witness; and he was selected by the Parnell Commission to conduct the case for Charles Stewart Parnell and the Irish party against The Times.

Lewis had by far the largest practise in financial cases of any lawyer in London, and was especially expert in libel cases, being retained by some of the chief newspapers. He showed himself especially skilful in exposing the practises of usurious money-lenders.

Lewis was knighted in 1893, and raised to the rank of baronet in 1902 as Lewis of Portland Place.

Lewis was married twice: 1st to Victorine Kann (1840 Frankfurt/Germany - 21 April 1865 London); 2nd to Elizabeth Eberstadt (27 October 1844 Mannheim/Germany - 4 September 1931 London),.

He died on 7 December 1911 at Portland Place in London.

End of Wiki quote.

The 1893 date for a knighthood is interesting if it could be shown it was a reward for being useful to the Government in some sensitive case.

I bolded above an interesting connection to Parnell. I wonder whether than was the case referred to in Simon's post?

Phil

[Phil H]

Absolutely fascinating!!

So we have another potential "Irish/Fenian" connection.

Is the solicitor - George Lewis - the same as the one who was used by many in high society to deal with their cases. He came to my attention - if so - over the Daisy, Countess of Warwick letters (when Edward Prince of Wales tried to regain scandalous letters from Lewis and was rebuffed).

I have found this about Lewis, from "The English Country House Party" by Phyllida Barstow.

The man most often called in to handle the delicate business of papering over the cracks - reconciling offender and offended, keeping the matter out of court and preventing any hintof trouble reaching the Press - was a solicitor named George Lewis, who used to claim that his head was so full of secrets that he dared not keep a diary for fear of it falling into the wrong hands.

A skillful negotiator of great sense and discretion, lewis was adept at sorting out the tangled affairs of cuckolded noblemen and card-sharps alike...

Lewis is referred to as having been a house-party guest at Sandringham and was "very far from being in awe of his noble clients: he knew their weaknesses too well".

He was eventually knighted.

So, Lewis was well known for his discretion, and handled delicate matters.

Moving onto a slightly different tack, if Le Grand was shadowing people, it couldn't have been Le Grand that MJK was said to be frightened of, could it?

Phil
edited for spelling

[Simon Wood]

Hi Debra,

What a pair of exploding brainiacs we are.

Try adding this to the equation.

At the Old Bailey, 24th June 1889, George Lewis, a solicitor consulted during the Ripper case, stated that "I have seen Grandy [Le Grand] at my office, not in connection with this case [conspiracy], but as a private detective in connection with the Parnell case . . . it did not come to my knowledge that he had been employed by Mr. Soames, nor do I believe it—I do not know that he had been shadowing Pigott and Mr. Labouchere; I do not believe it . . ."

George Lewis, who had interviewed Pigott in the company of Parnell, did not say that Le Grand was not shadowing Pigott and Labouchere; merely that he did not care to believe it. But if Le Grand's story was true this puts him in company with the RIC, two of whose officers–Sergeants Fawcett and Gallagher–let Pigott to slip through their fingers, and Robert Anderson who, it was believed by the press and others at the time, connived to allow Pigott's escape. Anderson then despatched two of Littlechild's officers–Inspector Patrick Quinn and Sergeant Richard Owen–to arrest him in Spain.

Talk about six degrees of separation. We've still got a long way to go, but I'll bet you a tenner to a Snickers bar that, somehow, the JtR phenomenon was inextricably bound up in the political intricacies of the Special Commission, which makes for a very good reason why it's still a state secret almost 122 years after the event. And if certain people have their way, it will remain a secret.

Regards,

Simon

[Debra A]

Hi Simon,
Yes, Grand and Batchelor came late in terms of the finding of the bloodstained shirt at Batty Street if the reports that the police were in pssession of it from the morning following the double event are true.

What is interesting is that until the Echo of 15th October reported specifically that a bloodstained shirt had been left at Batty Street with a laundress, the police, if they had found the shirt and were investigating, had managed to keep that information under wraps for two weeks. Or so it was thought.
On 10th october, a report [dating from the 9th] appeared saying that Messrs Grand and Batchelor were investigating a bloodsatined shirt recently left with a Mrs kail, a laundress in Batty Street [all the elements of the story reported widely from the 15th onwards but 5 days before any of the others] and that they had passed the information on to police
Grand and Batchelor here being mentioned in the earliest known report of the shirt in Batty Street.
If the police were keeping this find a secret how did it get leaked to the press and Grand and Batchelor's name tied up in the investigation in this seemingly one, random, very early report?

I don't know if you caught my other post on the Casebook Examiner II thread about Grand using the name 'Grand and Co' on letterheads produced in court in 1889? In that snippet there's also a mention of Le Grand trying get a letter published in the Evening News, to bolster along his current blackmailing scam.[also mentioned in Tom's article] He seems to have been a good manipulator of the press when he wanted to be.

The more I learn the more I feel my head is going to explode!