Louis Diemschutz

[Chris George]

Hi Nats
I can't remember the date exactly offhand, but wasn't Lewis Lyons arrested and sentenced (then quoshed...the sentence not him!) in the Dod Street protests of around 1885?
I remember something similar from when I was looking at Albert Bachert's role in this as a conservative canvaser, and his run ins with Lyons etc.

Hi Debra

Dod street occurred on 20 September 1885:

"Several leading lights in the socialist world addressed the crowds at Dod Street, including Edward Aveling, Eleanor Marx and Lewis Lyons, Jewish Tailors’ Trade Union leader.

". . . at the end of a meeting, the police launched a violent attack on the speakers, arresting and charging eight men, among them Jack Williams and Lewis Lyons. . . .

"At the Thames Police Court, Edward Aveling and Eleanor Marx gave evidence on the men’s behalf, nevertheless Lewis Lyons was sentenced to two months imprisonment."

From: Hayes Peoples History dedicated to the Hayes Labour Association etc.

[Debra A]

Hi Nats
I can't remember the date exactly offhand, but wasn't Lewis Lyons arrested and sentenced (then quoshed...the sentence not him!) in the Dod Street protests of around 1885?
I remember something similar from when I was looking at Albert Bachert's role in this as a conservative canvaser, and his run ins with Lyons etc.

[Robert]

Diemschutz is mentioned in quite a few papers. Here's the Illustrated Police News April 13th 89 :

[Chris Scott]

Hi Nats
Thanks for the reply
I can only assume that the Fishman reference quotes the wrong year.
The Freedom article reads in full as follows:

Another example of metropolitan police activity. On the 22nd of March the Jewish workers of the East End organised a demonstration against the sweating system, and at a mass meeting on Mile End Waste passed a resolution condemning it. After the proceedings were over, Mr. Munro, scenting Socialism not to say Anarchy beneath this audacity of the wage-slaves, sent some of his men to break, without any sort of pretext, into the Berner's Street Working Men's Club. The representatives of law and order broke windows, tore down picture, and posters and fell with their fists and batons upon a few of our comrades who happened to be there. One, the wife of the steward, they threw down and kicked, others they beat until the blood streamed, three were dragged to the station, again beaten, and then charged with assaulting the police.

http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist...eedom3_29.html

But this passage is from the issue of April 1889
Chris

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Folks- the event created the arrest of William Morris

who had come to protest the innocence of the two young men.William Morris was set upon and arrested "for disturbances at court".

From William Fishman"s East End Jewish Radicals:

Mr Saunders, sentenced the labour leader Lewis Lyons at Thames Police Court to two months hard labour for assaulting a policeman.Owing to Lyons brilliant cross examination of the policeman concerned,the sentence was quashed at the Middlesex sessions.At the same hearing "that same magistrate promptly dismissed the charge against Morris".

er....... William Morris ,already being famous,rich, English and upper middle class , might have had something to do with it?[

Anyway,thanks Debs for the other reports and further information.

Chris,

...........that is the date of the Times report given by William Fishman.
Stewart Evans and Don Rumbelow dont actually give a date for the report they quote in their book on the matter-it is just a footnote on the search of members after the Stride murder in Berner Street-but it is very clear and quite implicit in their comment that the report they print is one of "several" they have read about and it appears to be their conclusion ,after considering this evidence for they give support to their comment

"and there were suggestions of rough handling by the police" [ 2nd para,page 101 ,JtR Scotland Yard Investigates] by referring the reader to "footnote 4" of "The London Terrror",where they quote the news report above describing said event of pictures being torn down etc----that is on page 290 under "notes".

[Debra A]

Hi Nats,

If there are other "newspapers" with different accounts of the SAME incident, I am happy to discuss them but this is the incident I understand took place and what happened as recorded by two contemporary newspapers-"The Times" and "Freedom".
Best
Natalie

Here's two other newspaper versions of the events of March 1889 just to give an alternative version of reporting of those events.

Lloyd's weekly Sunday May 5th 1889




Glasgow Herald March 18 1889



There is a much longer Lloyd's article from March 1889 but I can't seem to be able to post it at the moment

Debs

[Chris Scott]

I think the report below (Times 9 April 1889) was posted on the old boards, but just in case...

[Chris Scott]

Hi Nats
Can you check the date of The Times report as 18 March 1888 was a Sunday and the paper was not published that day.
If you can let me know the right date I'll track the article down and get it in the Press Reports section
All the best
Chris

[Natalie Severn]

from "Freedom" paper on event described abovMarch 1888

The previous report of the incident in question was from "The Times" of 18 March 1888.The following is from the "Freedom" newspaper:


....After the proceedings [ie The Mass Meeting on Mile End Waste] were over Mr Monro,scenting Socialism,not to say Anarchy,beneath the audacity of the wage slaves,sent some of his men to break,without any sort of pretext,into the Berner Street Working Men"s club.The representatives of Law and Order broke the windows,tore down pictures and posters and fell with their fists and batons upon a few comrades who happened to be there.One.wife of the steward[ie L.D"s wife] they threw down kicked,others they beat until the blood streamed,they were dragged to the station,again beaten and then charged with assaulting the police.

This ,Chris, refers "word for word" to the passage I quoted which I found in Stewart Evans/Donald Rumbelows most recent book "JtR Scotland Yard Investigates" and refers to the Police Raid on the Berner Street Club in March 1888.
If there are other "newspapers" with different accounts of the SAME incident, I am happy to discuss them but this is the incident I understand took place and what happened as recorded by two contemporary newspapers-"The Times" and "Freedom".
Best
Natalie

[Natalie Severn]

conintued on from The Times article 18.03.1888-see above

.....the day was not yet over....Riots and discomfortures followed.After the dispersal of the crowd at THE WASTE ,many made their way to Berner Street ,"Where in anticipation of a disturbance,the police were present in strong force.".......a fight suddenly broke out at the entranceto the Berner Street Club."The police felt bound in the interests of public peace to make some arrests".In the subsequent melee three club members were seized: Louis Diemslietz, an unlicensed hawker of 40 Berner Street; Samuel Freedman,cap blocker of 31 Weaver StSpitalfields,and Isaac Kozeldrodske,machinist of 40 Old Ford Road,Bethnal Green.
to be continued

[Natalie Severn]

re Disturbance outside Berner st Club 16 March 1888

Hi Chris,

As promised the following reports refer to the incident in question:

From The Times 18 March 1888

"....the processionists.....went to Mile End Waste,where addresses were delivered by the leaders,and a resolution was passed condemning the action of Dr Adler "for refusing tocomply with the courteous request of the committee of the Jewish unemployed to preach a sermon at the Great Synagogue having special reference to our position and prospects" protesting against the LABOUR SWEATING indulged in by certain members of the Jewish community,complaining of the indifference of the rich Jews,and calling upon the work people "not to depend upon the rich classes but to organise in a strong body for the abolition of the capitalist ruling class"

to be continued

[Natalie Severn]

This disturbance was I believe related to the brawls between radical anarchist and socialist Jews and orthodox Jews at the time of the Day of Atonement, the most sacred day of the Jewish calendar, in March 1889, as I reported in my article in the March issue of Ripperologist on "Synagogues of the East End and the Era of Jack the Ripper."

Similar riots tied to the day had occurred in 1888. As I wrote,

"The socialists purposely met on Jewish religious holidays and held marches targeting synagogues. They thus planned disruptions on the Day of Atonement, the most important religious date in the Jewish calendar, in March 1888. Ed Glinert has written about their agitators’ activities during the sacred day:

"'At the time of the Jack the Ripper murders while the Jewish community prayed. . . apostate anarchist Jews at the Berner Street International Working Men’s Club held a banquet as their personal snub to the day of fasting. In their speeches the anarchists explained that the miseries and degradation of the people should not be blamed on divine power but on capitalism. . . . They anticipated trouble from orthodox Jews, and were not disappointed. Religious zealots who had gathered outside the building began to smash the club’s windows. When three of the audience went outside to intervene more trouble flared, and a melee of around a hundred Jews fought until dispersed by the police.'"

An article here on Casebook "Sabbath Addresses to Jewish Working Men and Women. 'Socialist Synagogue Parade.'" The Jewish Chronicle, 22 March 1889 describes the activities of the club and the disturbances around the Great Synagogue in Aldgate and in Berner Street.

Chris

Hi Chris,
No,the disturbance relates to the one I described in this particular case.The men had been to an open air meeting on Mile End Waste and the whole thing looked worrying-
but I will dig the quote out tomorrow and post it,Its not that easy to locate because Fishman didnt provide an index.
Cheers
Natalie
ps the article looks very interesting-I cant print it out at the moment so I have only read the first page- so far so good!
Natalie

[Ally]

I agree with Don that CG's article was worth a read. I had almost entirely complimentary things to say about it in my review, which sadly did not get posted due to there being no thread on Rip 89 in which to post it.

[Supe]

Chris,

as I reported in my article in the March issue of Ripperologist on "Synagogues of the East End and the Era of Jack the Ripper."

A worthy and interesting article it is, sir. For that matter, so is the entire issue.

Don.

[Chris George]

Here is a report from JtR Scotland Yard Investigates by Stewart Evans and Donald Rumbelow.It can be found under notes on The London Terror page 290.

".....many marches and demonstrations started from the[Berner Street] club.Interestingly,in March 1889 when Monro was commissioner,there was a fight outside the club involving between 200 and 300 people,one of whom was Diemschutz,who had found Stride"s body.According to one report ,the police forced their way into the club,"broke windows,tore down pictures and posters and fell with their fists and their batons upon a few of the comrades who happened to be there" Diemshutz"s wife was thrown down "and kicked ,others they beat until the blood streamed,three were dragged to the station, again beaten and THEN CHARGED WITH ASSAULTING THE POLICE[!!!] The houses were searched twice and a loft door broken open."

I believe this is the incident which the reports refer to and are talking about.
Natalie

This disturbance was I believe related to the brawls between radical anarchist and socialist Jews and orthodox Jews at the time of the Day of Atonement, the most sacred day of the Jewish calendar, in March 1889, as I reported in my article in the March issue of Ripperologist on "Synagogues of the East End and the Era of Jack the Ripper."

Similar riots tied to the day had occurred in 1888. As I wrote,

"The socialists purposely met on Jewish religious holidays and held marches targeting synagogues. They thus planned disruptions on the Day of Atonement, the most important religious date in the Jewish calendar, in March 1888. Ed Glinert has written about their agitators’ activities during the sacred day:

"'At the time of the Jack the Ripper murders while the Jewish community prayed. . . apostate anarchist Jews at the Berner Street International Working Men’s Club held a banquet as their personal snub to the day of fasting. In their speeches the anarchists explained that the miseries and degradation of the people should not be blamed on divine power but on capitalism. . . . They anticipated trouble from orthodox Jews, and were not disappointed. Religious zealots who had gathered outside the building began to smash the club’s windows. When three of the audience went outside to intervene more trouble flared, and a melee of around a hundred Jews fought until dispersed by the police.'"

An article here on Casebook "Sabbath Addresses to Jewish Working Men and Women. 'Socialist Synagogue Parade.'" The Jewish Chronicle, 22 March 1889 describes the activities of the club and the disturbances around the Great Synagogue in Aldgate and in Berner Street.

Chris