Schwartz and Brown

thanks for at Perry

Glad the info helped dixon.

Cheers

[dixon9]

thanks for at Perry

sorry to post again straight after my last post.Do you think Liz that evening was acting like a lady on a night off?If Gardner and Best are to believed(which there is no reason not to) ,Liz seemed pretty flirty at around 11pm at The Bricklayers Arms.Just a thought

Dixon9
still learning

What we do know about Liz that night Dixon is that she seemed in good spirits when she left the lodging house, despite being denied the use of a borrowed lint brush for her skirt, she had 6d that she had been paid for cleaning some rooms which she showed to a lodgemate, she was wearing what he lodgemate describes as her "good" evening wear, and Liz tells her that she will not be returning that night, nor did she know when she would be back again, and asked the lodgemate to hold a swatch of velvet for her. Sometime later that night she acquires a maidenfern arrangement which she attaches to her jacket.

Although she is seen with a few different men, none can be confirmed as being anything more than acquaintances she was friendly with,...we know of no "tricks" she may have performed that night. Nor is there any indication that she consumed any traceable amounts of alcohol.

I think its important to recognize that we have at least 2 statements from different sources that tell us that Liz was capable of disappearing for weeks and some cases months at a time....Kidney states that, and so does an ex-landlady. In Kidneys statements we have indications that he believed at least some of those periods Liz was with another man for the time she was gone....but she would return eventually....."as I believe she liked me better than any other man."

Liz may well have been planning to disappear for a while again, she is free of Michael at this point, and she does not know when she will be back to a lodgehouse where she frequently stays.

Is that new man someone at the International Club that night?

My guess is yes.

Best regards

[dixon9]

sorry to post again straight after my last post.Do you think Liz that evening was acting like a lady on a night off?If Gardner and Best are to believed(which there is no reason not to) ,Liz seemed pretty flirty at around 11pm at The Bricklayers Arms.Just a thought

Dixon9
still learning

[dixon9]

hi curious
yes could well be something Liz might say on a night off.


Dixon9
still learning

[curious]

Harry i was basing it on the womans reply of not tonight.I just thought that was more of a girlfriend/wife line (sorry to the women on here no offence intended)than a woman in Liz's 'line of work'

Dixon9
still learning

Hi,
Couldn't it also be the line of a working girl who was taking an evening off?

curious

Lynn,
All things are possible,but I am of the opinion the woman Brown saw was Stride.I would welcome any suggestion,backed by resonable evidence,that she was not.

As am I Harry. The incident he reports is much more in keeping with the kind of mood that Liz would have had to be in to even consider having a cachous, a quiet tete a tete is much more probable to have within it a reason to have a cachous....close quarter conversation....than her reacting to an altercation that left her on the ground and having to brush off her boot length skirt.

Add to that opinion Browns appearance at the Inquest, and Israels story's absence from any records of that Inquest. And the fact that Fanny Mortimer could hear bootsteps on the street when she wasnt at her door, but didnt hear anything of the altercation Schwartz describes, nor did she see anyone on the street or near the gates from around 12:45 to 12:55-:56, when she was at her door off and on.

With Browns sighting, Liz has time to cross the street with or without the man seen with her and enter the yard by herself possibly and still be out of sight of Fanny.

Best regards Harry

[lynn cates]

reasonable evidence

Hello Harry.

"I am of the opinion the woman Brown saw was Stride. I would welcome any suggestion, backed by re[a]sonable evidence, that she was not."

Agreed. All we can hope for is reasonable evidence and its interpretations.

The best.
LC

[dixon9]

Harry i was basing it on the womans reply of not tonight.I just thought that was more of a girlfriend/wife line (sorry to the women on here no offence intended)than a woman in Liz's 'line of work'

Dixon9
still learning

[lynn cates]

possibility

Hello Dixon. Yes, quite possible I think.

The best.
LC

[harry]

Lynn,
All that is reported to have happened,did so from about 1245AM,according to witnesses,and was over by 1AM,but of course one has to make allowances.Mine is a theoretical account of what I believe could have happened.I have added no one who was not reported to have been there.I have assumed that the man Brown saw,and the person labelled Pipeman,were one and the same person.I have put a different interpretation on the initial incident as described by Schwartz.Only one man supplied details.That was Schwartz.One must believe,disbelieve,or interpret those details.Everyone who comments on the issue does so.Brown's Statement describes a situation of mutual trust,a condition I feel had to be present if she was to be put off guard.
Dixon9,
All things are possible,but I am of the opinion the woman Brown saw was Stride.I would welcome any suggestion,backed by resonable evidence,that she was not.

[dixon9]

could the 'No not tonight,some some other night'couple (who James Brown saw) have been the young sweethearts?


Dixon9
still learning

[lynn cates]

identification

Hello Harry. So in your reckoning, pipe man = BO man (brushed off man) and it was he who eventually killed Liz?

I would appreciate any details you care to provide, for example, was BO man Liz's date? Any speculation about the nature of Liz's rejection?

Do you think it was the rejection which led ultimately to her demise?

The best.
LC

[harry]

Lynn,
I look at it this way.Pipeman could have been the person seen by Brown with Stride."Some other time", was not a complete rejection.They break up,Stride turning into Berner Street,with Pipeman watching from the corner.Pipeman sees the scrimmage at the entrance to the yard,but because of the poor light does not see clearly.He does however see Stride fall.He sees a man cross the street and hurry towards him though on the opposite side of the road.He attempts to delay this person to find out what had happened,but Schwartz ,seeing him,and mistaking his intentions,begins to run.Pipeman follows for a short distance,before returning to where Stride is now standing at the yard entrance,BS having gone,or in the process of doing so.She sees a person who only minutes ago had been in her company and had shown no menace,so accepts his presence.She is therefor off guard to any sudden danger.

[lynn cates]

pipe amn

Hello Harry. You are right, of course. All we know is that Schwartz beat a hasty retreat but pipe man "did not follow so far."

Do you think pipe man may have returned and "settled" Liz?

The best.
LC