Fanny Mortimer

[Steve S]

So who's going to do the animation with all the various 'witness's'....see who'd bump into each other......?

I wouldn't give yourself a hard time. Berner Street and the various statements are a headache.

All the best

Pirate

Not the least of which comes from Schwartz himself. Assuming that Inquest omission means something.

Best regards

[Jeff Leahy]

I wouldn't give yourself a hard time. Berner Street and the various statements are a headache.

All the best

Pirate

[Steve S]

Of course...Doh!...Schwartz crossing over changes his perspective of the 'opposite' side........

[Jeff Leahy]

Schwartz and BS are on the right hand of the street. The same side as 36 Berner Street. And the same side as the entrance to Dutfield Yard.

BS must have walked passed Fanny's front door and window and met Stride only about 20-30 feet from Fanny's front door.

Schwartz crossed over (at some piont) but was on the opposite side of the street.

Pipeman appeared from the pub on the corner of Fairclough Street Number 42 Berner street. The same side as Dutfeild yard. But on the opposite side to Schwartz.

Schwartz runs to the railway arch. My Guess is that he goes straight down Berner street (which was longer than today) to Ellen Street, along to church lane and down to pinchin street. A long way to run?

Pirate

[Steve S]

Incidentally..Am I the only one who gets a bit confused with Schwarz's 'opposite sides of street'...If he crossed roughly at the yard entrance..And Pipeman crossed at the same time...wouldn't He have had to pass him pretty close on the other side....or was he looking back which would explain the fear of being followed...?
Steve

[Rob Clack]

There was, according to William Marshall's testimony: "There is a gas lamp over the baker's shop at 70 Berner street, at the corner of Boyd street."

Does that make us "quits"?

Only just

I was going by the 1889 Directory and there was nothing listed at that address.



The directories I've seen either side has William Schutz, Baker, in 1882 and Wolf Abrahams, Baker in 1890 so it was probably one of them.

Rob

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Rob and Sam

Firstly can I thank you both for your input, I owe you both a pint next time we bump into each other.

It would seem that I had the cart coming the wrong way up (rather than down) the street. It would also appear to make Fanny’s statement more credible.

I’m still worried about the grapes however and wonder if this is an elaboration of hers or the reporter reporting it?

It looks as if we have also established that rather than standing outside the house for ten minutes that she was in and out of the house. Which makes me wonder why?

And that she was probably closer to BS man than Schwartz when he shouted “Lipski” yet apparently heard nothing?

Anyway many thanks again for saving my bacon

Yours Jeff

[Sam Flynn]

And that's the baker's that was later run by one Morris Kozminski, strangely enough.

...renowned for its gutter-ready loaves, no doubt

[Chris]

There was, according to William Marshall's testimony: "There is a gas lamp over the baker's shop at 70 Berner street, at the corner of Boyd street."

And that's the baker's that was later run by one Morris Kozminski, strangely enough.

[Sam Flynn]

The Telegraph got it wrong. Lloyds Weekly News Saturday 7 October 1888was a bit more specific

Well, well... I'd never seen that account before. Many thanks for putting me and the record straight, Rob. Perhaps it was more a case of "tobecko shop" being misheard as "the baker's shop", then! (Seriously.)

Also there wasn't a Bakers in Berner Street.

There was, according to William Marshall's testimony: "There is a gas lamp over the baker's shop at 70 Berner street, at the corner of Boyd street."

Does that make us "quits"?

Hi all,

It should be added here that in one account Fanny statement reads as if she was at her door off and on from around 12:30am until 1am,...and we are left to assume that during her times away from the door, Lave looking into the street from the gates at around 12:30-40am, Eagle entering the yard at 12:40am via the gates resulting in his being there when Lave said he was there , Israel seeing an altercation with the woman exclaiming and the assailant yelling at witnesses, and Diemshutz pulling into the yard.

But she does see Goldstein. Although it would be physically impossible for him to be doing what she said, which was that he turned and "looked up at the club" as he passed by. The wall Liz is found by would be already passed when he is at the open gates, to look sideways and up meant he was looking towards the back of the yard,...to see the club window or wall he would have had to look up and back over his shoulder. A 90 degree angle as his line of sight when in front of, and parallel to, the gates, would not result in him seeing the club at all.

What Fanny couldnt see is the probably the most likely place for the killer of Liz Stride to have come from....inside Dutfields Yard.

We are told no-one was in that yard by Club members, yet we know 2 witnesses who said they were in it ...at the same time that night near the time of the murder... at 12:40am.

Goldstein may be passing while Liz is being killed or is already cut.

That makes him the most valued sighting as far as Fannys contributions go....and her statements that she was surprised that Mrs D didnt hear anything when she was feet from the murder site in the kitchen, which had an open window and ajar door.

Its what Fanny didnt see or hear that is so curious....none of the critical witness events suggested by Schwartz.

Best regards all.

[Rob Clack]

Hi Gareth,

The Telegraph got it wrong. Lloyds Weekly News Saturday 7 October 1888was a bit more specific:



Also there wasn't a Bakers in Berner Street.

Rob

[Sam Flynn]

Diemschutz came from the Commercial Road end of Berner Street. This is from The East London Observer 6 October 1888/:

Lewis Dienischitz [Diemschutz], who is the steward of the club, found the body, and this is his version of the discovery: "On Saturday," he says, "I left home about half-past eleven in the morning and returned home exactly at one a.m. Sunday morning. I noticed the time at a tobacco shop in the Commercial-road.

That doesn't tally with his inquest testimony as reported in the (Daily Telegraph, 2nd October, Rob:

"Lewis Dienishitz, having affirmed, deposed: I reside at No. 40 Berner-street, and am steward of the International Workmen's Club. I am married, and my wife lives at the club too, and assists in the management. On Saturday I left home about half-past eleven in the morning, and returned exactly at one o'clock on Sunday morning. I noticed the time at the baker's shop at the corner of Berner-street."

Could this be a case of a thick Eastern European accent getting in the way? In other words, could "der backer shop" have been confused for "tobacco shop"? We know that there was a baker's shop at the corner of Berner Street, after all.

[Jeff Leahy]

Cheers Rob.

That would suggest that Deimishcutz came from the top of the road passing Fanny Mortimer, as she states, and turns right into yard.

If there's any chance we could get agreement here I would be most grateful. It's quite important.

Many thanks to you both for your time

Jeff