Fanny Mortimer

[Natalie Severn]

I had never heard it suggested Mortimer had a "young lady" Tom......no wonder his wife was at her door at midnight then-----she was probably keeping an eye on him!

[Natalie Severn]

Its great to see you back too Jeff!

[Tom_Wescott]

Letchford's sister

Letchford was very young and Mortimer was late 40's, so there's no likely relation. Letchford had two teen sisters at home, so it would have been one of these. Again, if both women were standing in their doorway (as opposed to standing out on the sidewalk) it's possible they wouldn't have seen each other.

It has been suggested this 'sister' might have been Mortimer's young lady, but that conflicts with what Letchford tells us, so I think they're probably two different people.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Jeff Leahy]

Thanks for that Rob most useful. i still cant figure what the circle represents on the map?

Hi Chris and Happy New Year. As a matter of interest Charles Letchford claims his sister was standing outside for ten minutes just before one?

Is there a possible connection between Mortimer and Letchford? or is it possible that this was a common practice done by people in the area?

Not important it just crossed my mind..

Many thanks to you all

Pirate

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks Chris.Its always interesting to read this type of information about the lives of the East End individuals we read about on here.Even though Mrs Mortimer played only a minor role in the case we can build up a slight portrait of her already.She was aged 48 and had married at the age of 21 in a Church of England ceremony .In 1888 she was the mother of at least five children and she used to stand in her doorway taking the night air of st George East at midnight! She would have heard trains passing by a little further away over the Cable Street railway arches and heard the sounds of the shipyards and docks nearby---especially when the fog came and the ships fog horns sounded over the Thames!
You start getting a broader picture of London life.

Nice to see you post Chris and a Happy New Year!

Best
Norma

Thanks too for the photo Rob!

[Rob Clack]

I haven't got a photo of that corner of Berner Street. This is the opposite side so it may have looked like this.



Rob

[Chris Scott]

This might be of use to some
Some details about Fanny Mortimer (née Fanny Skipp)


Fanny Mortimer (maiden name Fanny Skipp)
1851:
Roydon Street, Roydon, Essex
Head: Samuel Skipp aged 42 - Farm labourer
Wife: Lydia Skipp aged 47
Children:
Ann aged 16
Charlotte aged 14
Fanny aged 11
Benjamin aged 7
All born in Roydon


1871:
36 Berner Street, St George East
Head: William Mortimer aged 31 born Holborn - Carman
Wife: Fanny Mortimer aged 30 born Roydon, Essex
Children:
Minnie aged 5
Charles aged 4
Thomas L aged 5 weeks
All born in St George East


1881:
36 Berner Street, St George East
Head: William Mortimer aged 42 born Paddington - Carman
Wife: Fanny Mortimer aged 41 born Essex
Children:
Minnie aged 15
Charles aged 14
Edward aged 8
Rose aged 4
Samuel aged 4 months
All born St George East
Lodger:
William Crane aged 35 born St George East - Labourer

1901:
Charles Mortimer was a boarder at 33 Jamaica Street with the family of Georger Dean, a gold beater.

I am still missing:
1) Family details for 1891
2) Details for 1901 (except for Charles)
3) Date of Death for Fanny or William

Below is a copy of their marriage cert:

[Tom_Wescott]

That's where I was trying to say it was. Thanks, Rob. I imagine the entrance would resemble the Nelson's.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Jeff Leahy]

Thanks for that Rob.

Any idea where the entrance would be or if any photo's exist?

Also what is the round thing marked in the road?

Many thanks jeff

[Rob Clack]

The Chandlers shop Brown went to was probably Henry Norris at 48 Berner Street which was on the South Western corner.



Rob

The fact that she believed the steps to be a policeman suggests to me that they were heading in the same direction as the police beat? Which I beleive was South to North...although Monty might know his police beats? did they some times do them in reverse?

But yeah I guess she would be used to noise from the club.

Yours Jeff

PS Micheal Ah yes the old Dopler effect

I think we have wiggle room there Jeff.

My best regards

[Jeff Leahy]

She hears the measured steps, although I don't recall her stating the direction they were walking. She took it to be a policeman. She also heard Diemschutz's cart go by, a sound she'd be familiar with. She could hear the noise from the club and the single cry of 'Lipski' may have blended in with that, it all 'being Greek' to her.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

The fact that she believed the steps to be a policeman suggests to me that they were heading in the same direction as the police beat? Which I beleive was South to North...although Monty might know his police beats? did they some times do them in reverse?

But yeah I guess she would be used to noise from the club.

Yours Jeff

PS Micheal Ah yes the old Dopler effect

She hears the measured steps, although I don't recall her stating the direction they were walking. She took it to be a policeman. She also heard Diemschutz's cart go by, a sound she'd be familiar with. She could hear the noise from the club and the single cry of 'Lipski' may have blended in with that, it all 'being Greek' to her.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

My position on her aural accounts is that she could well have heard the sounds she described, but she almost certainly wouldnt be listening for the direction....a sound grows outside, something is near, it fades....its gone.

She may well have heard the cart and pony being taken away.

Best regards

[Tom_Wescott]

She hears the measured steps, although I don't recall her stating the direction they were walking. She took it to be a policeman. She also heard Diemschutz's cart go by, a sound she'd be familiar with. She could hear the noise from the club and the single cry of 'Lipski' may have blended in with that, it all 'being Greek' to her.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Jeff Leahy]

Thanks for that Tom.

So basically the person who took the photo would have had his back to the Chandlers Shop Brown bought his meal from.

So what I require is a Photograph taken from outside the Nelson Beer shop looking South or West?

I have just gone through Philip Hutchinson’s new book but unfortunately there appears to be nothing in the Whitby Collection on Berner Street! Dash.

But you have basically answered the Question although without knowing the exact position of the chandler shop entrance we can not be 100% sure, at present.

If Brown did see a couple then they would have been out of view to Fanny, although Brown possibly had a view of Strides position just inside Dutfeild Yard, well a better view than Fanny anyway.

But basically, I believe Brown to have had a poor view down Berner Street which cuts down the chances of him witnessing the incident claimed by Schwartz considerably.

The only nagging detail in the back of my mind is that both BS and Schwartz walk past Fanny’s door and she heard nothing, then she doesn’t hear three screams and the shout of Lipski…..but then she does hear 'measured' steps going past her door back towards Commercial Street?

Many thanks for your time and help

Yours Jeff