Maxwell

[richardnunweek]

Hi Phil,
Trust you are well also.
I absolutely agree, many ripperologists tend to drop any mention of Maxwell has having any relevence in the kelly murder, she is the Valerie Storie[ A6] of 'Ripperland', wrong, wrong , mistaken...
Caroline Maxwell by all accounts was a level headed, respectable lady, who not only was interviewed by Abberline himself, but swore under oath at the inquest, dispite the coroners insistance that her evidence was alien to the medical reports.
Mistaken..she knew of Barnett, she knew Kelly by name.
Wrong day.. even the anti Maxwells accept that unlikely.
So what is the explanation?
Was she lying.?
What ever for?
That leaves us with the obvious.. Mjk was killed after the last sighting by Maxwell, and its that simple, so who was the middle aged man [ dressed in plaid] that was the last person [ allegedly] seen with Mary Kelly..
Was he her killer? has to be suspect number one.
Regards Richard.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Richard,

The minority rules ok! (but not in the Minories, nor down the mines, explosions and all...)

The trouble is that one of the enduring myths of all of this is that the time of Kelly's demise was never officially ascertained, as it was not presented at the right time in the right place...namely at the inquest, which closed prematurely without this crucial piece of information.

Although there are many a thread and comment upon this point, I feel that it cannot be overstated enough. Because of it, the "nightstalking murderer" who killed Kelly in the small hours always pop up in the "fact" column.
Maxwell is an important witness and spoke up. She went against the grain and trend, stuck by her guns under pressure and said she stated catagorically that she saw Kelly more than once that morning.

All this is much to the consternation of many at the time and many since. It blows holes in all sorts of ideas and theories. As we both know some people will hold on to their pet ideas like bally hoo and go to great lengths to discredit any witness or witness statement that doesn't "fit".

Looking at it this another way....if Maxwell told the truth, then the police themselves are in the spotlight as they DIDN'T believe her at all, and tried to discredit her. They placed their apparent bets very clearly. The police? Make such an faux pas? Heaven forbid! That's when people shout "conspiracy theorist" at one. Witnesses discredited? Yup..but the police? Never!
It therefore doesn't take more than a whiff of common sense to put this lady's statement into context.

There are "myths" and then there are "myths" about JTR. As long as the "believe what we are told to believe" boat isn't rocked, the myth is accepted.. "someone must have been mistaken", "someone didn't have a watch", "watches weren't that common in that area at the time", someone had poor eyesight from "such a distance", "wrong day" "still had the horrors of drink upon her and that must have affected her memory/eyesight/timing", etc etc ad nauseum.

Yup..there are myths, and then there are myths. One of them is that the police were untouchable in their approach to all of this. I am reminded of Winston Churchill. Fairy stories, or such like.

Hope you are well Richard.

best wishes

Phil

[richardnunweek]

Hello Mike,
Prater even [ as you know[ described the 'Oh Murder' as if awakening from a nightmare, which again [ as you proberly know] was confimed in a conversation with Kit Watkins three years after, it was described by Prater, as precisely what Lottie informed Kit. ie.. 'Mary informed me, she had a nightmare that she was being murdered, and she was infact the next to go,
Therefore it can be assumed, that this dream of kellys took place during october, and was proberly before the 30th, when Barnett walked out, as his apparent reading of the 'gory bits 'of the newspapers, and his warning to her to act respectably, may well have enticed an reoccurence of that dream, which gave the utterance of 'Oh Murder', which would be 'apt' for the cry heard.
I feel that as, there is an plausible explanation for the cry, as given by Mrs Prater at the inquest [ along with her ''interpretation,'' which she endeavoued to describe] we should not take the cry at 4am as an indication when Kelly met her demise.
Again my thoughts are in the minority.
Regards Richard.

[The Good Michael]

Richard,

I think Maxwell is credible because no one really knew when Kelly died. Bond was decent, but his times don't match modern forensics very well. As for, "Oh murder.", well we know that it was a common enough thing and witnesses even said so. Could Maxwell have been wrong? Of course, but she may have been right too.

Mike

[richardnunweek]

Hello Mike,
Correct, but the trouble is nobody else agrees, except a handful of us.
Regards Richard.

[The Good Michael]

PS,

I believe it's possible. From what I'm understanding of rigor mortis, Kelly could have been killed at 9:00 or so. I don't know how that changes anything, however. The initial reports stated the onset of rigor mortis which could be (depending on where you look) 2-4 hours. At the time of examination (2pm),
rigor mortis had already set in, but was continuing during the examination. Rigor mortis begins in 2-4 hours and continues for another 6 hours. If Kelly had been killed at 3:00; rigor mortis would have been complete before Bond began the autopsy. This is not a hard science because things such as cold affect the process, and because individuals vary. I think a anywhere from 4:30-9:30 is a good window of time for Kelly to have been killed.

Mike

Mike

[packers stem]

Hi Richard
Losing battle i'm afraid.
I try to weight the witness statements with surroundings and situation.
By this i mean Lighting,known to witness,calmness,willingness to testify.
Caroline Maxwell will come out comfortably on top of any other eye witness in the whole series of murders.
You and I both believe this(yes with different conclusions) but for most people it's dismissed simply because it's awkward.'If you don't like something,bury your head in the sand and just hope it goes away' appears to have been the common opinion for many years and i don't think that'll change any time soon
All the best

[richardnunweek]

Hi
If Maxwell saw 'someone else' why did she attend the inquest?
She must have satisfied the police that the description she gave of Kelly , was accurate, which included clothing.
By all accounts Mjk had a distinctive appearance , her hair for eg.
She gave her statement on the Friday[9th], and she had the whole weekend to realise a mistake on her part, but did not .
I have no doubt that she saw Mary Kelly, and the police verified that it was not a mistake of date.
The burnt clothing.
How long does a bonnet take to burn ,or boys shirts?
I am of the opinion we assume to much about T.O.D.
Regards Richard.

[Abby Normal]

burnt clothes in the fireplace indicates killer must have been in Mary Kelly's room many hours before 9:00 am.

maxwell saw someone else.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Rubyretro,
That was a tragic case,... of course it is entirely possible that Mrs Praters interpretations at the inquest, was actually Kelly being overcome.
However the dream that Kelly had, which apparently frightened her, happened after the double event, but prior to November 9th, and the point I am suggesting is that a reoccurence of that dream of ''murder' could have reared its head that morning , especially as she was lacking in sleepovers, and if she had a gent, bedding down in her room, her imagination , fueled by fear and alcohol, night have sparked a similar dream.
Not Impossible guys...
The point is,.. there is an explanation for the cry heard, and that explanation has been somewhat confirmed by a different source at a later date, by a resident of Millers court, who knew her.... as well as Prater. ie Lottie.
Rather like Abberline, I find Maxwells account acceptable.
Regards Richard.

[Rubyretro]

Note the subject of that dream, and the cry of 'Oh Murder', which fits rather well I suggest.

It reminds me of the murder of Caroline Dickinson, murdered in the village of Pleine Fougéres, Brittany, in 1996..she was a child sleeping in a youth hostel full of other children on a school trip when she was strangled and raped : the muffled noises she made were put down to 'bad dream' by the others in the same room !

[miss marple]

Mrs Maxwell later saw her outside the Brittania at 9. 00 talking to a man, so a death date of 9 am is not feisible even if you believe the woman was Mary Kelly'
I don't think she was, but what we have from Mrs Maxwell is a woman who had been on a bender for several days, feeling rough and throwing up at 8 30. Later same woman spotted outside pub at 9.00 talking to man. Chances are she went into Britannia [hair of the dog] with man.
So according to Maxwell thesis MK HAS HAVE EATEN AND DIGESTED fish dinner after 9.am and before 10 45 am. AT some point return to room with man get murdered and chopped up in broad daylight with nobody noticing her and man returning to her room. Unbloodstained unknown man casually leaving her room before Bowyer arrives and no one noticing him. The body would be practically fresh. Sorry I don't buy it, its not probable.
Miss Marple

[richardnunweek]

Hi Mike,
We should not forget, Maurice Lewis, and the milk trip, also the elusive woman named as Mrs Goode, who initially confirmed a sighting in Dorset street of Kelly, but when the press went to locate her later in the day she could not be found.
We should also note that it was rumoured at the time, that the murder ocurred shortly before the body was found, and jealously was the motive, this was I would say, a suggestion that the dead woman was seen in the company of Barnett around 10am[ cannot be confirmed].
It is modern day medical opinion, that the murder based on Rigor mortis could have occured around 9am, so we cannot rule that out, especially with alleged sightings.
I would suggest that the police doctors made a educated guess about T.O.D, based on food digestion, and the cry of 'Oh Murder'.
But as I have remaked on several occasions/many, the 'cry' heard along with the opinion of Mrs Prater that it resembled a nightmare awakening, may have been just that, especially as Lottie.. resident in room 13 in 1892, informed Kit watkins[ canadian journalist] that Kelly had told her, she had a bad dream that she was being murdered.
Note the subject of that dream, and the cry of 'Oh Murder', which fits rather well I suggest.
So If Mary just awoke and cried out from a reoccurence of that dream[ which is not imposssible] that would not pinpoint a physical attack.
That leaves us with the food content scattered over her intestines, again I would suggest, that the aweful mutilation, and a wrong T.O.D, might lend weight to a error in judgement about when the food was consumed.
So we have.
Three witness sightings, albeit only one confirmed.
An explanation about the cry, confirmed by both Mrs Prater, and the woman Lottie[ some three years after].
Modern medical opinions on rigor mortis.
One of the witnesses Maxwell confirming her sighting under oath.
Against.
We have 1888 medical opinion , and its many limitations.
Regards Richard.

[Sally]

What about Maurice Lewis - didn't he see her? Or was that just a tale?

[The Good Michael]

I'd have to agree with Bob's point re: no one else seeing Kelly that morning. Yet, forensics do indicate that the time of death could have happened at 9-ish if we take Bond's initial statement about the commencement of rigor mortis as being accurate. If Maxwell was fairly correct on her time assessment, and she had the right day in mind, what changes really? Or is this an opportunity to insert some nonsensical theory.

Mike