Is Mr Schwartz the equivalent of a Hasidic Hutchinson?

[celee]

Hi,

I am hard headed. I am still one of the few that believe Hutchinson's story. I think the fact that Hutchinson Knew the victim and talked to her the night he saw her, much like Cox, makes him a better witness then a man who is identifing a strange womens body. However, I believe Shwartz too.

It is strange that both men sightings seem to be dismissed by Abberline.. He could have just decided that Cox was the best witness. However, I can't explain why Abberline would later claim that no one ever got a good look at the ripper and those who did only saw him from behind.

The cry of "Oh murder" heard by two independant women around 3:45 in the morning just puts doubts in my mind concerning every witness. Maybe it put doubts in Abberline's mind aswell

Your friend, Brad

[Tom_Wescott]

He claimed he knew her, but do we know that for sure? And Schwartz also identified the body of Liz Stride as the woman he saw, for all that's worth.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[celee]

Hi,

I think both men were telling the truth. Hutchinson is the sronger witness because he actually new the victim and I dentified her.

Your friend, Brad

[Tom_Wescott]

In both the case of Hutchinson and Schwartz, we have press reports telling us the police don't place too much faith in their evidence. Both do seem to fall off the radar, whereas Lawende is referenced years later.

Like you, I'm not convinced that Sarah Lewis saw Hutchinson. That's just something we assume. However, she DID see someone standing in that spot at that time, and after publication, Hutch emerged to put himself in that spot at that time. That would be rather odd of him had it not been him she saw. But I digress...Like you, I would like to hear from some people who could tell us why we should accept Schwartz as the Rosetta Stone of Berner Street witnesses.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Michael. For the record, I see no reason to think Schwartz was Hassidic. Hassidic is not a synonym for Jew.

There certainly are similarities here, and this is an issue I've brought up many times...why is Hutchinson damned as a liar and even a murderer whereas Schwartz is taken at face value? The main reason has to do with Swanson's endorsement in his famous report. However, Swanson could not personally endorse Schwartz's veracity, since he took no part in the interrogation. He merely commented that the 'police report left no doubt' as to Schwartz's honesty. In short, the interrogating detective believed Schwartz. The detective in question was Abberline, the same man who put his short-lived stamp of approval on George Hutchinson.

According to the Star, the police arrested a couple of men based on Schwartz's evidence, but were reluctant to move further on it unless supporting evidence came forth. If the Star is correct, then the police as a whole were not that confident in Schwartz's information.

In comparing Schwartz to Hutchinson, there's two important factors that seperate them. In Schwartz's favor, his evidence is more believable on the face of it. In Hutchinson's favor, at least there's a modicum of support that he was where he said he was at the time he said he was. Schwartz found no such support for his statement.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom,

The title was just a play on words with alliteration, I didnt mean to suggest Israel was in fact Hasidic.

But on your comments, it seems to me both witnesses have senior investigative support for their statements initially, and yet neither were considered in the short term to be viable stories.

The Inquest doesnt re-open to enter Hutchinsons remarks, and Israel's are not at all present in the Stride Inquest. Yet both had some support extended at one point. I believe that suggests they were both found to be less than credible when investigating their claims.

Hutchinson has no support for his story in the evidence, unless you assume he was Sarah's Wideawake Man, something I dont embrace fully myself. He could easily have used that story element to better position his fabrication by having that knowledge before he entered the station Monday night.

Best regards Tom.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Michael. For the record, I see no reason to think Schwartz was Hassidic. Hassidic is not a synonym for Jew.

There certainly are similarities here, and this is an issue I've brought up many times...why is Hutchinson damned as a liar and even a murderer whereas Schwartz is taken at face value? The main reason has to do with Swanson's endorsement in his famous report. However, Swanson could not personally endorse Schwartz's veracity, since he took no part in the interrogation. He merely commented that the 'police report left no doubt' as to Schwartz's honesty. In short, the interrogating detective believed Schwartz. The detective in question was Abberline, the same man who put his short-lived stamp of approval on George Hutchinson.

According to the Star, the police arrested a couple of men based on Schwartz's evidence, but were reluctant to move further on it unless supporting evidence came forth. If the Star is correct, then the police as a whole were not that confident in Schwartz's information.

In comparing Schwartz to Hutchinson, there's two important factors that seperate them. In Schwartz's favor, his evidence is more believable on the face of it. In Hutchinson's favor, at least there's a modicum of support that he was where he said he was at the time he said he was. Schwartz found no such support for his statement.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[halomanuk]

Oh Mike what have you done ?
Created another thread (albeit an interesting one ) with Hutchinson in it ?
Oh woe !!

[perrymason]

Hello all,

I've been looking more critically at the event records regarding the Stride murder investigation and to my eye it would seem that what Israel Schwartz represents in the big picture is essentially the same thing that George Hutchinson later represents in the Kelly investigation, based solely on what the existing and known records suggest. They are promises unfulfilled.

Both gave very close proximity ID's, and in Schwartz's case, his statement impacts the investigation a great deal at first....offering an off-site altercation involving the soon to be murdered woman and a Broadshouldered Man, feet from the murder location, and just minutes from the estimated time of her throat being cut. Lending itself to a suggestion that she was killed by someone not club affiliated. Occurring off the property of the International Club, but just outside their "empty yard", by their own member witness accounts. A significant sighting if accurate.

Hutchinson's story convinces Inspector Abberline, and offers the police the absolute best suspect description if accurate of all the alleged Ripper sightings. He re-introduces a well heeled suspect, as seen in Packers story. But this was a notion that few investigators thought probable, a poor local man was the ideal suspect until George Hutchinson came in on Monday November 12, 1888, after 6pm, and the closure of Marys Inquest.

Both gave what amounts to very important information if truthful......yet Israel Schwartz, and his story and suspect are not even mentioned in Liz Strides Inquest, and we also know that the Police felt Hutchinson's story was not to be believed by no later than November 16th. He was "discredited".

The Inquest for Liz Stride opened Monday Oct 1st...after Schwartz's statement was on record, and was held over 5 days in October, ending Oct 23rd. There was ample time for them to Investigate his story and character fully during that period, even if only to bring him in on the final day, October 23rd. Yet the Inquest clearly shows they deferred to Mr Browns suspect instead, both having the same approximate time mentioned.

To me that suggests the authorities felt that the most likely last witness account of Liz Stride and the one they were prepared to support was not one with her and a Broadshouldered Man seen assaulting her, but one that is described by the Victorian Godfather of Soul , James Brown...a dock laborer from Fairclough Street...

"He saw the couple standing by the Board School; the woman had her back to the wall, facing the man who had his arm up against it. Brown heard the woman say "No, not tonight, some other night" which attracted his attention. There was no trace of an accent in the woman's voice. The man was described as being about 5ft 7in tall and stoutly built, wearing a long overcoat which went down almost to his heels. He was wearing a hat, but Brown was unable to describe it. It was quite dark, so he could not tell if the woman was wearing a flower on her jacket, but both appeared sober."

Note that they are not near the gates at all. And that the woman demurred for that particular night, but in a way that left future "meetings" as not possible. It also may indicate that she was not soliciting that night. She was not mistreated by this man, nor did she seemed stressed in his company, even with his arm blocking her path.

Since the official version of the events witnessed at 12:45am on Berner Street comes from James Brown, not Israel Schwartz, I suggest one of these 2 answers are probable......One, that Israel Schwartz was disbelieved by the authorities and felt to be a less trustworthy source than James Brown was,.... or Two, that Schwartz's omission at the Inquest and the absence of his story altogether as a witness was to enable them to use him quietly and discreetly to view some later suspects. And perhaps as the grounds for an issuance of a Pardon for Accomplices after Marys murder.......based on Schwartz's inclusion of Pipeman with a knife in one account in addition to BSM's altercation with Liz, and Wideawake Hat seen at Marys location.

In the second option I mention, that would be very much the kind of role that has been assumed was filled by Lawende, including being called for later line-ups and possibly a face to face ID with a patient in a Mental Institution under police arrest.

I personally believe that Schwartz's Broadshouldered Man is not likely the Ripper by his entrance and interaction with witnesses, but very possibly her killer.....if his story is truthful.....but Browns account would better fit a Ripper pick-up profile,....if his was the truth.

The only way to tell is what the authorities believed is the evidence that they chose to present regarding their investigations. And there is no official sanction of Israel Schwartz.

I believe at the very least, Brown should be considered the final sighting of Liz Stride going forward....which would therefore place question on Israels motives for fabricating a story. Like we see hundred page threads doing regarding George Hutchinson all the time.

Any comments, ideas and thoughts are welcome.

Best regards all.