Romford

[The Good Michael]

Jon,

I think fitness is incorrect as well. It's just getting used to having to do stuff. I remember a long time ago I was on a bicycle trip for 6 months with a budget to deak with, I had huge problems with the bike and fixed them myself, but new parts killed me financially. I took a job for 1 day picking oranges in Florida knowing that I would make 50-60 dollars if I worked hard. There I was, super fit and this little man, skin burnished and dessicated by the sun, and chainsmoking, was consistently picking two huge bags at a time (about 175 pounds a bag) on a ladded and carrying them back down full to the truck and doing it over and over for 9 hours. I could do one at a time and I was dragging my a$$. He just did it. He probably made 500 a week and it may have gone to booze and cigarettes for all I know. I never did that work again. He just had no other way to make money. One supposes that market porters, costermongers, and hop pickers were cut from the same cloth. Hutchinson too.

Mike

[Wickerman]

I guess I'm one of the few who see's the humor in some of these exchanges.
Today we are too lazy to walk to the corner store, when you were broke walking was all you had to get around a hundred years ago.

Spending hours on end standing in doorways was normal. Women sitting in groups on someones doorstep, was normal. Walking for hours on end for food, or work, or to visit someone was not out of the ordinary at all.
Someone suggested Hutchinson was unfit, it might be well to remind some of our modern couch-potato's that a typical working-class man had to work 16-18 hour days and go without food for 12 or more hours at a stretch.
These people always had to give more, to get less. I don't think 'fit' even comes into it, those times were hard, people in those days had stamina we can't even imagine.

Regards, Jon S.

[The Good Michael]

Again, every Saturday 1 walk 6 miles to teach a one hour English lesson, then I walk 6 miles back. After gathering my computer and notebooks, I leave again and walk 3 miles round trip to the closest place I can get coffee and do a little work, and I'm twice the age Hutchinson was... and 1/2 the man. By the way, I'm never tired out by it because it is a fairly flat walk and it does rain while I walk aometimes. Rain makes no difference other than being annoying, and even makes it better on a hot day.


Mike

[The Good Michael]

Whatever happened that day Hutch didnt think his walking back from Romford "tale" was so overly far fetched or he wouldnt have told it, neither did Abberline, neither did any newspaper reporter, or indeed a single letter writer to any of the newspapers in the days afterwards.

Are you suggesting that those folks knew more about what people did daily and could do than we, 120 years later know? I mean just because they lived in those times and witnessed such things daily doesn't mean they knew anything.

Mike

[Robert]

I myself once walked 26 miles. Eddowes and Kelly foot-slogged it from Kent. I do have trouble with the idea of Hutch walking miles in the rain just because he was in love, which seems a bit Mills and Boon.

[jason_c]

Speaking from experience of long walks, I have seen fit and healthy young men trained in such,drop out long before twenty miles,let alone 28 miles,and those that finish head to the nearest bunk.Not our superbly fit labourer Hutch though.A jaunt round Romford included,and to finish,a leisurly stroll round Whitechapel,broken by a forty five minute vigil,for the rest of the night. Even Wilson would find that a hard match,and he was the best.As to believing witnesses,a very senior Australian law enforcement officer once told me that one should never express an opinion without first checking the content of a statement.I doubt Aberline or any of those that questioned Hutchinson,even set foot outside the police station to check his story of going to Romford..One other thing he said.There isn't a policeman living that can't be fooled.

All of which is fair enough. But Abberline didnt think his story was so strange. Im sure ive read of football supporters walking to away games during the Great Depression. Whatever happened that day Hutch didnt think his walking back from Romford "tale" was so overly far fetched or he wouldnt have told it, neither did Abberline, neither did any newspaper reporter, or indeed a single letter writer to any of the newspapers in the days afterwards.

[harry]

Speaking from experience of long walks, I have seen fit and healthy young men trained in such,drop out long before twenty miles,let alone 28 miles,and those that finish head to the nearest bunk.Not our superbly fit labourer Hutch though.A jaunt round Romford included,and to finish,a leisurly stroll round Whitechapel,broken by a forty five minute vigil,for the rest of the night. Even Wilson would find that a hard match,and he was the best.As to believing witnesses,a very senior Australian law enforcement officer once told me that one should never express an opinion without first checking the content of a statement.I doubt Aberline or any of those that questioned Hutchinson,even set foot outside the police station to check his story of going to Romford..One other thing he said.There isn't a policeman living that can't be fooled.

[Supe]

Neil,

I will cease to disrupt this thread once I've excercised my right to reply.

Do stick around, else we are stuck with too many fools and phonies. When some of these folks that are so full of themselves contribute one-tenth to the field that you have, far less what Stewart has given, then i might be willing to listen to their feeble offerings. My opinion, of course.

Don.

[Monty]

Phil,

I will cease to disrupt this thread once I've excercised my right to reply.

Whilst the majority of that is true, it isn't complete.

Adam asked me to run through the article (which as a cricket lover I really enjoyed) BEFORE he asked you. This I know because I also have the Email exchange where he came back to me stating that he didn't realise there was an issue between you and I and asked if I was willing to carry on.

I stated I had no problem but would only do it if YOU was happy with it. The response was you were OK, which was just as well as I had already read through it and, as I said, enjoyed it.

I also obtained an image for you at Adams request. Now this flies in the face of your accusation that I'm a negative influence in Ripperology.

Like I say, selective.

Monty

[Phil Carter]

Hello Monty,

Adam kindly ASKED me if it was ok to check the ONE artcle (singular) in Ripperologist about cricket with you. Which for me, was fine, as Adam and I agreed that you knew a lot on the subject. So get your facts right. I agreed to his suggestion. I still have the emails.

I now suggest that we do not continue to disrupt this thread further.

Apologies to all for my part in this disruption.

Phil

[Monty]

Monty now is it Philip?

I'm crap with words Philip, that's why Adam gives me your articles to read through. He knows such great pieces are erm, actually wasted on me. Therefore I get the fillers.

Now you wanna play silly sods and get personal then let's play. In the open, for all to enjoy instead of the regular behind the scenes crap.

What you get is what you see with me Phil.

What is my agenda?

Monty


Axcording? Shall I be as cruel?....no, I'm a bit more grown up.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Monty,

Be careful losing long words.. you'll choke on them. Especially if they are your own. Example?.. see next sentence. Shame about your risen hackles. But then again, heckling may well be the correct terminology in your case. Whoops, deliberate mistake No.1 eh?

Don't worry about agenda's Monty, you have them too, and they are very see-through.

By the way.. According to Wikipedia, the prefix "coulro-" may be derived from an Ancient Greek word meaning "stilt-walker", although the concept of a clown as a figure of fun was unknown in classical Greek culture. Coulrophobia can be a plot device used to show how the protagonist must overcome his fears in order to vanquish the enemy.

If an "enemy", I am far from vanquished. Shame.

Phil

[Wickerman]

Babybird

I think 45 mins is explainable. Firstly, he had nowhere else to go. Secondly, Hutch may have had an ulterior motive. Its possible he was wanting to hook up with Kelly, either for sex or simply a bed.

A prostitute and client indoors would roughly take 30 minutes to complete the 'transaction'. I think Hutch would have expected Astrakhan to have left before 45 mins. He likely got bored waiting.

This is conjecture of course, but the time frames seem reasonable.

Agreed Jason, but it is positive conjecture. At least you are making a concession towards understanding the times & lifestyle of this hardy group of people. And you appear to be quite correct as, according to the Star (all caveats apply with this paper), Hutchinson claimed:
" I stood there for threequarters of an hour to see if they came down again, but they did not, and so I went away."

So, certainly he was suspicious about the character, and waited for the man to exit, but he did not. His cause for concern was initiated because:
"...he was surprised to see a man so well dressed in her company.."
Which may only mean that she normally associated with the working class or even that she was normally seen with Barnett.

We don't know why he would be concerned, but if this was the same man who had been seen accosting women in the area it may be that this was the basis for his concern. And this is quite possible because Hutchinson also advised that he thought the man lived in the area:
"I believe that he lives in the neighborhood, and I fancied that I saw him in Petticoat-lane on Sunday morning,.."

Petticoat Lane is substantially a Jewish market, and a man like Hutchinson, a labourer out of work & pennyless could well be drawn to find casual work on Sunday morning at the market, what would be more natural than that?
He may well have seen this well-dressed man while working, only able to raise the attention of a policeman on point-duty and briefly explain who he had seen.

There's no need for Hutchinson to have believed that the man he saw was the murderer as the news reports over the weekend were confused about her time of death. The likelyhood that she had been murdered late on Friday morning sometime after 9:00am was widely considered. So of course Hutch did not push his experience.

The concensus that Kelly had probably died earlier, overnight about 3:00am was only established after the Inquest on Monday. Therefore, only after the end of the Inquest would Hutchinson realise that his sighting had more importance than he first thought.

Regards, Jon S.

[Monty]

Hello Monty,

Nah.. you just comment on everything negatively. Oratorical and literary skill isn't quite your forte. You haven't exactly got the ability to use blandiloquence have you. Don't worry. Kakorrhaphiophobia is a common complaint amongst Ripperologists. I reckon Sir Robert Anderson suffered from it too, by the way..

Phil


Phil

Hello Phillip,

I save my positive stuff for those who talk sense and have no agenda mate,
that's why you only see the negative in me.

Yes, Kakorrhaphiophobia seems to be spreading. Almost as widespread as the paranoia of the establishment. Besides, I'm a Coulrophobic, which explains why my heckles rise when you appear.

Go check the toaster.....I think they can hear you.

Jen,

You are placing your own life experiences against Hutchison and making a conclusion his behaviour is not normal without considering the alternatives or dismissing them in favour of your judgement.

You admit you haver no experience on such matters, so how can you draw conclusion that 'it stinks'?

Jason has partly explained (thank you JC), the rest is there to be researched or, if you fancy it, experienced.

Monty

[jason_c]

Hi Monty

I'd like you to elaborate on which parts of his behaviour you don't find suspicious if you wouldn't mind. What do you find normal about hanging about for 45 minutes on a cold rainy winter night outside someone's property. To my perhaps naive mind, that doesn't make sense at all. I would assume if Hutchinson was a frequenter of prostitutes he would know more than one of them, and if Mary was occupied he would be better able to spend his time elsewhere looking for a bed for the night.

I'm quite willing to look at other scenarios, but it doesn't help me make sense of what I perceive to be anomalies in Hutchinson's version of events.

Bias is a curse we all must bear Monty. In fact I'd be suspicious of anyone who suggested they were free of it.

Jen

Babybird

I think 45 mins is explainable. Firstly, he had nowhere else to go. Secondly, Hutch may have had an ulterior motive. Its possible he was wanting to hook up with Kelly, either for sex or simply a bed.

A prostitute and client indoors would roughly take 30 minutes to complete the 'transaction'. I think Hutch would have expected Astrakhan to have left before 45 mins. He likely got bored waiting.

This is conjecture of course, but the time frames seem reasonable.