Mrs Long

[Ben]

I wouldn't say it's completely worthless, but her self-confessed rear view significantly diminishes the value of some of her observations; particularly the age and ethnicity.

[robhouse]

Correct me if I am wrong, but the apparent sunrise on that date was 5:23 AM. But anyways, thats not the point. I was merely responded to an earlier post that said Long's description was worthless because the man was facing the other direction.

Rob

[Ben]

Perhaps because the lighting conditions are infinitely better than they would have been at the Hanbury Street location at that time, Rob?

All the best,
Ben

[robhouse]

I am sitting in a cafe right now, and I just looked up and there is a guy who just stood up from a table about 15 feet away. I had not noticed him before.

He is facing almost exactly away from me. I can see he has a beard, wears glasses, he is thin, caucasian, and looks to be in his late 20s. Now how can I see all this if he is facing away from me?

Rob H

[Ben]

Hi all,

I'd agree that Long shouldn't be discounted, certainly. Her evidence offers us a height, headgear and clothing description, which are aspects that she could have noticed from a rear view. Age and ethnicity are significantly more problematic, however, from her alleged vantage point.

Best regards,
Ben

[Mitch Rowe]

Hi All,

Rationalise Mrs Long all you like, but there's something very Billingsgate going on when a coroner prefers her casual glance to Doc Phillips' informed medical opinion. Even more so when said medico finally eats his words and admits to possibly being over two hours out in his estimation of Chapman's TOD.

Regards,

Simon

I wouldnt give Long that much credit. Cadosch puts himself only feet from the murder scene and hearing something odd. When asked if she usually saw couples talking she says lots of them. Thats bad. Very bad.

But.. I will say she helped to steer the TOD towards the after 5:00 am timeline. I wonder how much credit she would have been given had Cadosch never showed up?

What we are left with is a mess where we can never be sure when Annie died. So she dies anytime from the time it takes her to walk to 29 Hanbury from where she is last seen. And that is Little Paternoster Row.

EDIT>> I need to explain that clearer. Annie was last seen on Little Paternoster Row. So if she walks straight to 29 Hanbury and meets the Ripper thats the earliest time she can be killed. What??? You say! Explain that! You say!

Easy.. JTR kills Annie at 2:30-3:00 AM. JTR throws a blanket over Annies body. JTR returns some hours later to retrieve the blanket.

[robhouse]

"but 40 can easily be mistaken for only 35, especially with a semi-back view only, suspect descriptions can easily be 50% inaccurate, especially a week later"

Malcolm X,

Yes, of course this is true. I m not remarking on the general accuracy of witness descriptions. I was only remarking on the tendency to discount Long's because she saw the man from the back. She could of course have been wrong.

RH

[Malcolm X]

I think before people go around saying Long's description (40ish, foreigner) should be discounted entirely, they should test this out empirically on the street. Next time you are walking down the street, and see someone facing the opposite direction, see how much or how little you can tell about that person (age, complexion) etc.

I do not think the conclusion is so black and white, for a number of reasons. First, although a person is facing the other direction, this does not mean they are EXACTLY turned 180 degrees with their back to you. And secondly, Long was moving, so presumably her perspective changed. Also, the person may have had his head turned slightly, or moved somewhat... etc. AND, even if the man was EXACTLY turned 180 degrees in the opposite direction, I think you might be able to guess a person's age or complexion, or ethnicity.

I am just saying dont jump to conclusions, and try it out.

RH

but 40 can easily be mistaken for only 35, especially with a semi-back view only, suspect descriptions can easily be 50% inaccurate, especially a week later

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

Rationalise Mrs Long all you like, but there's something very Billingsgate going on when a coroner prefers her casual glance to Doc Phillips' informed medical opinion. Even more so when said medico finally eats his words and admits to possibly being over two hours out in his estimation of Chapman's TOD.

Regards,

Simon

[robhouse]

I think before people go around saying Long's description (40ish, foreigner) should be discounted entirely, they should test this out empirically on the street. Next time you are walking down the street, and see someone facing the opposite direction, see how much or how little you can tell about that person (age, complexion) etc.

I do not think the conclusion is so black and white, for a number of reasons. First, although a person is facing the other direction, this does not mean they are EXACTLY turned 180 degrees with their back to you. And secondly, Long was moving, so presumably her perspective changed. Also, the person may have had his head turned slightly, or moved somewhat... etc. AND, even if the man was EXACTLY turned 180 degrees in the opposite direction, I think you might be able to guess a person's age or complexion, or ethnicity.

I am just saying dont jump to conclusions, and try it out.

RH

[Robert]

As far as I'm aware, there is no evidence that she was a prostitute.

[BinxiiPop]

Was she a prostitute?

She's not on Google or Wikipedia, and I need to know for GCSE coursework?

[fido]

Splendid research having untangled Lechmere-Cross, I wonder whether any of the genealogically or directory-skilled researchers could explain why Mrs Lkong was also Mrs Darrell.
Martin F

[Sam Flynn]

is there a chance the reason she described him as foreign was because she heard him speak in a foreign accent, and the references to this have been lost over the course of time?

Given that all she heard him say was "Will you?", she didn't have too much material on which to do a "trace". That said, if what she heard came out as "Vill you?" then it might explain in part her attribution of foreignness to the stranger.

[Ben]

Hi Elias,

My guess is that there'd be an extant record of her identifying the suspect's accent as foreign-sounding if "foreign" it was. More likely, she never specified a foreign accent because she didn't hear one, and the whole "looked like a foreigner" observation was brought about by a combination of the "Leather Apron" factor and the fact that Hanbury Street was home to many Jewish tradesman. The fact that Mrs. Long was quick to reinforce the whole "foreigner" angle (again) when the coroner was clearly asking about the man's likely occupation is a telling indicator in this regard.

That's not to say there's no value in her statement; only that it ought to be limited to height and dress. That's really all she could have noticed.

Best regards,
Ben