Harry Harris

[caz]

Understood, Debs!

Love,

Caz
XX

[Debra A]

Hi Caz,

Oh, I side with Chris too about my statement! I made it general terms but meant really the case of Harry Harris. The witness Harris was born c 1840's if it is the right man that Chris found, and like you say, the eldest of your grandparents was only 11 at the time.

Debs

[caz]

Hi Debs,

I have to side with Chris on the pessimism angle from personal experience. I won't be drawing my pension for a few years yet, but all four of my grandparents were alive and well in 1888, and living in or close to London at the time, albeit the oldest was only eleven at the time.

I'm sure there must still be many a dusty attic around that could be storing a few family gems, even if it's unlikely that anyone currently has anything new to tell that was passed to them directly by a grandparent.

Love,

Caz
X

[Chris]

I'd say slightly pessimistic. The JC article does make it sound that Brian Harris is currently still a film producer so maybe not an elderly gentleman.

Oh yes, I do agree it's not likely to be the case here.

[Debra A]

I'd say slightly pessimistic. The JC article does make it sound that Brian Harris is currently still a film producer so maybe not an elderly gentleman.
I take on board what you say though...consider me chastised for my pessimism!

[Chris]

Chris, I would think it highly unlikely(but not impossible) that anyone could be the 'grandchild' of someone who heard the screams of a JTR victim and still be around to tell the tale at the present.

I think that's unduly pessimistic. We know that the last grandchild of one of the victims died only this year. Other people concerned with the case could have continued having children well into the 20th century, so it's not too great a stretch. Whether any fresh information is likely to emerge from such quarters, and how far it could be relied on if it did, is another matter.

[Debra A]

Chris, I would think it highly unlikely(but not impossible) that anyone could be the 'grandchild' of someone who heard the screams of a JTR victim and still be around to tell the tale at the present.
I suppose there is a chance that Henry Harris could have remarried after 1901and had a family then, but that still doesn't fit in with the 'young man' in '88 mention.

[Chris]

Not as far as I can tell, no.
If I have the right couple, in 1871 Henry Harris (a general dealer age 28) and wife Rebecca (26) were living at Catherine Wheel Alley, Bishopsgate, with a female boarder.
In 1881 at 18 Catherine Wheel Alley Bishopsgate, is Henry Harris aged 32, general dealer and wife Rebbecca age 30 and a female servant. I haven't got access to the images for the 1881 census so can't check the ages.

Henry Harris also had a brother named Moss Harris, b c 1841. On the 1861 census index he is listed with a daur named "Henry" which should actually read "Fanny." This branch of the family are untraceable after 1861 so I don't know if they had any male offspring or not either.

Thanks for those further details. If that's the right man, it certainly seems unlikely that the genealogist Brian Harris is the grandson of Henry Harris the Mitre Square witness.

[Debra A]

It sounds as though you've found the family in earlier census(es). Is there any hint of children of Henry and Hubba/Rebecca?

Not as far as I can tell, no.
If I have the right couple, in 1871 Henry Harris (a general dealer age 28) and wife Rebecca (26) were living at Catherine Wheel Alley, Bishopsgate, with a female boarder.
In 1881 at 18 Catherine Wheel Alley Bishopsgate, is Henry Harris aged 32, general dealer and wife Rebbecca age 30 and a female servant. I haven't got access to the images for the 1881 census so can't check the ages.

Henry Harris also had a brother named Moss Harris, b c 1841. On the 1861 census index he is listed with a daur named "Henry" which should actually read "Fanny." This branch of the family are untraceable after 1861 so I don't know if they had any male offspring or not either.

[Chris]

That's an interesting little snippet Chris. I wonder if Brian has ever elaborated on his grandfather's story in any other publication.

Unfortunately, there's nothing more about him in the JC article, other than the bit I quoted.

What puzzles me is that the Harris Harris mentioned in the article is described as being young at the time of the murders, and that his grandson seems to be still working as a film producer. That's a bit difficult to reconcile with the witness Henry Harris having been born in the early 1840s. So perhaps it's a family story relating to someone else entirely.

It sounds as though you've found the family in earlier census(es). Is there any hint of children of Henry and Hubba/Rebecca?

[Debra A]

That's an interesting little snippet Chris. I wonder if Brian has ever elaborated on his grandfather's story in any other publication.

(Though there's an obvious discrepancy between the censuses regarding Sarah's age.)

Sarah was 18 in 1871, so obviously an error on the original in 1891 (which I checked again to make sure)

[Chris]

Given the presence of the granddaughter named Moss, this seems likely to be Harry's father in the 1881 census (the age matches exactly):

Joseph HARRIS Head M Male 65 London, London, Middlesex, England Furniture Broker
Esther HARRIS Wife M Female 62 Sunderland, Durham, England
Sarah HARRIS Daur U Female 26 London, London, Middlesex, England Button Hole Maker (Tailor)
Jane HARRIS Daur U Female 23 London, London, Middlesex, England Cook (Dom)
Rose MOSS G Daur Female 11 Middlesex, England Scholar

Dwelling 15 Princes Street
Census Place London, Middlesex, England
Family History Library Film 1341094
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 0434 / 110
Page Number 19

[from www.familysearch.org]

(Though there's an obvious discrepancy between the censuses regarding Sarah's age.)

Just to make it clear this isn't gratuitous "genealogical ferreting", the following appeared in the Jewish Chronicle of 15 December 2006:
When his grandfather told him about hearing the screams of a victim of Jack the Ripper, film producer Brian Harris became curious about just how long his family had been enmeshed in East End history.
The answer turned out to be well over 250 years. More than a century before young Harry Harris had his grisly moment, his ancestors had set up an almshouse for sailors in the Mile End Road.
"They were a shipping family in the 17th century," says Brian Harris, who explains that his forbears dropped Da Costa for the much more English-sounding Harris well before 1800.

Obviously it's a bit difficult to reconcile this information with the above details. Though there is agreement that Harris came from an established English family, rather than having recently immigrated.

[Chris]

The single "wife" Sarah was actually "daur" when I checked the original this morning.
Sarah and both Henrys were all born in London City.

Thanks - that makes much better sense.

As an occasional tinkerer with programs and scripts, it amazes me that obvious automatic checks such as "a wife can't be unmarried" aren't performed by ancestry.com and its peers. To say nothing of checking whether the OCRed surname ranges for the BMD indexes are self-consistent, which could save its customers so much tedium.

[Observer]

Hi Debra

Thanks for that, quite a few Harry Harris's then.

all the best

Observer

[Debra A]

Hi, my mistake, it seems the Harris's depicted in the photograph are I and B. and they are carters not furniture dealers. Was Harris a common name for Jews in that area? I know that the jeweller whose shop was being burgled on the night of the Houndsditch atrocity was called Harry Harris.

all the best

Observer

Observer

Hi Observer
Just taking the name Henry/Harry Harris alone in the 1891 census throws up
22 in Whitechapel, 9 in London City including the Jeweller you mentioned at 116 Houndsditch? and 2 in St George in the East. (Not all adults)

At 51 Great Alie Street, I think the address on the signage on the photograph (nice close up Rob btw, thanks for posting it) was living a David Harris, no occupation given even though he is head of the household.