Kennedy and Lewis

[MrBarnett]

Why did you not quote from the court record?

I'll do it for you, and I will emphasize the important passage:

Sarah Lewis having been sworn deposed as follows:
I live at 24 Great Powell Street Spitalfields,
I am a laundress,
I knew Mrs Keyler in Millers Court.
I was at her house at half past 2 on Friday morning.
She lives at No.2 in the Court on the left on the first floor.
I know the time by having looked at Spitalfields Church clock as I passed it.

A number of press copies do phrase it differently, but then they were not being asked to make the distinction that 'you' have created.
'You' are choosing to dismiss an incident where two witness accounts mutually support each other, simply because 'you' are unable to account for roughly 15 minutes that 'you' claim must separate what they both saw, even if what they saw was identical.
Do you grasp how ridiculous that sounds?

Despite your protests, we do not know the precise time Hutchinson took up his vigil.
Also, we do not know the precise time Lewis arrived at Millers court.





You have not explained how any of those points can only be evidence of Kennedy & Lewis being the same person.
It's kind of obvious two women experiencing the same incident will tell the same story.

It is not obvious that the same woman would give two different names & two different addresses, and experience two different incidents on Friday morning.
You failed my dear.



Here we find another point of trivia. Specifically, that in the late 19th century it was more common for a girl to refer to her best friend as her sister.
This as a term of endearment has fallen out of fashion in our modern world. Who knows, maybe Lewis & Kennedy grew up together, maybe sharing the same household?, we simply do not know. Yet, if you take the time to look in a 19th century dictionary, which lists words currently in use, you will find the 19th century meaning of "sister".

"Close female friend"




We don't know if Kennedy was expected to give evidence, the inquest was cut short, terminated on the first day.
Are you suggesting the Evening News were attempting to frame the B.G.Botherer?, especially after this very newspaper had narrowly escaped being sued by John Pizer for libel?
You are really stretching things here.



But this is another example of you inventing anything to support a flawed theory.



So, you are saying the articles posted from 19th century newspapers are fake?
Or, the people who published those articles didn't know what they were talking about?
You know best of course, like many modern theorists, the actual people who lived through the time are all wrong?



It isn't clear what your point is.

Did you read PC Robinson's testimony at the Eddowes inquest:

"...At half-past eight, on the night of Saturday, Sept. 29, while on duty in High-street, Aldgate, I saw a crowd of persons outside No. 29, surrounding a woman whom I have since recognised as the deceased."

We all know Eddowes was arrested while being drunk, impersonating a fire engine.

Testimony by John Kelly.

"I heard she had been locked up at Bishopsgate-street on Saturday afternoon."

"Afternoon" ran from noon until midnight in the late 19th century, the fact people also use "evening" for the latter half of the afternoon is an established fact.
You can argue, or you can learn.

How exactly did Kate impersonate a fire engine?

[Wickerman]

Sarah Lewis did not say she was at the Keyler's at half 2. Her exact words were as follows:

"I know Mrs. Keyler, in Miller's-court, and went to her house at 2, Miller's-court, at 2.30a.m. on Friday. It is the first house. I noticed the time by the Spitalfields' Church clock."

I went to her house at half 2, not I was at or I was in. She also fixed the time by the Spitalfields Clock meaning she looked at it as she passed.

Why did you not quote from the court record?

I'll do it for you, and I will emphasize the important passage:

Sarah Lewis having been sworn deposed as follows:
I live at 24 Great Powell Street Spitalfields,
I am a laundress,
I knew Mrs Keyler in Millers Court.
I was at her house at half past 2 on Friday morning.
She lives at No.2 in the Court on the left on the first floor.
I know the time by having looked at Spitalfields Church clock as I passed it.

A number of press copies do phrase it differently, but then they were not being asked to make the distinction that 'you' have created.
'You' are choosing to dismiss an incident where two witness accounts mutually support each other, simply because 'you' are unable to account for roughly 15 minutes that 'you' claim must separate what they both saw, even if what they saw was identical.
Do you grasp how ridiculous that sounds?

Despite your protests, we do not know the precise time Hutchinson took up his vigil.
Also, we do not know the precise time Lewis arrived at Millers court.

In regards Kelly and Lewis being similar we have the following co-orboration:

- They both were going to a room in Miller's Court opposite Kelly's.

- Both gave information about the Bethnal Green incident that suggests they were either both there or the same person is describing the same event using a different name for the press.

- Both heard a cry of murder and both told how they were prevented from leaving the Court by Police the next day.

You have not explained how any of those points can only be evidence of Kennedy & Lewis being the same person.
It's kind of obvious two women experiencing the same incident will tell the same story.

It is not obvious that the same woman would give two different names & two different addresses, and experience two different incidents on Friday morning.
You failed my dear.

I can see the logic in your argument that Mrs. Kennedy was possibly Sarah Lewis sister....

Here we find another point of trivia. Specifically, that in the late 19th century it was more common for a girl to refer to her best friend as her sister.
This as a term of endearment has fallen out of fashion in our modern world. Who knows, maybe Lewis & Kennedy grew up together, maybe sharing the same household?, we simply do not know. Yet, if you take the time to look in a 19th century dictionary, which lists words currently in use, you will find the 19th century meaning of "sister".

"Close female friend"

For me though it seems that the Evening News took some creative license with her story and embellished it to involve Kelly. The fact that she was not called to the Inquest must surely have alarm bells ringing.

We don't know if Kennedy was expected to give evidence, the inquest was cut short, terminated on the first day.
Are you suggesting the Evening News were attempting to frame the B.G.Botherer?, especially after this very newspaper had narrowly escaped being sued by John Pizer for libel?
You are really stretching things here.

She had seen Kelly with a man at the time of her death. She was a crucial witness. If it wasn't Lewis using a pseudonym then it was a Mrs Kennedy parroting a story she had heard.

But this is another example of you inventing anything to support a flawed theory.

- Afternoon was afternoon even in Victorian times. Some other Inquest testimony:

So, you are saying the articles posted from 19th century newspapers are fake?
Or, the people who published those articles didn't know what they were talking about?
You know best of course, like many modern theorists, the actual people who lived through the time are all wrong?

"I last saw her alive between half-past seven and a quarter to eight on Thursday night".


"On Wednesday night I was going along the Bethnal-green-road, with a woman, about eight o'clock, when a gentleman passed us.


"From nine to half-past ten at night I was away seeing an English friend home, but I was in the club again till a quarter-past midnight."

I could post much more. If Bowyer said afternoon he meant afternoon.

It isn't clear what your point is.

Did you read PC Robinson's testimony at the Eddowes inquest:

"...At half-past eight, on the night of Saturday, Sept. 29, while on duty in High-street, Aldgate, I saw a crowd of persons outside No. 29, surrounding a woman whom I have since recognised as the deceased."

We all know Eddowes was arrested while being drunk, impersonating a fire engine.

Testimony by John Kelly.

"I heard she had been locked up at Bishopsgate-street on Saturday afternoon."

"Afternoon" ran from noon until midnight in the late 19th century, the fact people also use "evening" for the latter half of the afternoon is an established fact.
You can argue, or you can learn.

[Sunny Delight]

Sarah Lewis did not say she was at the Keyler's at half 2. Her exact words were as follows:

"I know Mrs. Keyler, in Miller's-court, and went to her house at 2, Miller's-court, at 2.30a.m. on Friday. It is the first house. I noticed the time by the Spitalfields' Church clock."

I went to her house at half 2, not I was at or I was in. She also fixed the time by the Spitalfields Clock meaning she looked at it as she passed.

In regards Kelly and Lewis being similar we have the following co-orboration:

- They both were going to a room in Miller's Court opposite Kelly's.

- Both gave information about the Bethnal Green incident that suggests they were either both there or the same person is describing the same event using a different name for the press.

- Both heard a cry of murder and both told how they were prevented from leaving the Court by Police the next day.

I can see the logic in your argument that Mrs. Kennedy was possibly Sarah Lewis sister(Lewis being a widow) and she returned home at a 3am seeing the same man in the same place as Lewis had seen. For me though it seems that the Evening News took some creative license with her story and embellished it to involve Kelly. The fact that she was not called to the Inquest must surely have alarm bells ringing. She had seen Kelly with a man at the time of her death. She was a crucial witness. If it wasn't Lewis using a pseudonym then it was a Mrs Kennedy parroting a story she had heard.

- Afternoon was afternoon even in Victorian times. Some other Inquest testimony:

"I last saw her alive between half-past seven and a quarter to eight on Thursday night".


"On Wednesday night I was going along the Bethnal-green-road, with a woman, about eight o'clock, when a gentleman passed us."


"From nine to half-past ten at night I was away seeing an English friend home, but I was in the club again till a quarter-past midnight."

I could post much more. If Bowyer said afternoon he meant afternoon.

[Sunny Delight]

It is true that the Evening News was the paper that identified the hatless woman by name, all the rest merely described her as hatless & poorly clad, which doesn't mean it wasn't Kelly, that is how she appeared.
Kelly was certainly hatless, Cox specifically said so on the night in question. It was a prostitutes calling-card to not wear a hat in the evening hours. So all the accounts can be used to identify the same woman, and that woman was named, it was Kelly.


I think it safe to say Mrs. Kennedy was Sarah Lewis using a pseudonym. Lewis told the Inquest;
Sure, it all depends on how much stated evidence you choose to ignore.

- Lewis lived at No.24 Great Pearl Street.
- Kennedy lived at No.2 Millers Court.

- Lewis passed the Britannia, and arrived at Millers Court at, or before 2:30 am.
- Kennedy arrived at the Britannia at 3:00 am.

- Lewis saw one woman with one man outside the Britannia.
- Kennedy saw two women with one man outside the Britannia.

- Lewis saw a man in Dorset St. standing opposite Millers Court.
- Kennedy made no mention of seeing anyone in Dorset St.

Conversely, perhaps you can list at least 4 pieces of evidence which demonstrate Lewis & Kennedy were the same person?

If Lewis had seen Kelly she most certainly would have said so at the Inquest.
She did, I gave the quote above - the hatless woman entering Millers Court.
Lewis didn't live at Millers Court, in her police statement to Abberline on 9th Nov. Lewis said, "I did not know the deceased". Clearly then Lewis couldn't identify Kelly by name.

In relation to timings Hutchinson fixed his time seeing Kelly at around 2am. The whole incident involving Hutchinson, Kelly and A.K man took most likely 10-15 minutes absolute maximum. Probably slightly less. The latest Hutchinson set up vigil at Crossinghams was 2:15am. Lewis fixed the time as 2;30am on her way to Mrs. Keyler's. Again Lewis here is rather vague and frustratingly it is difficult to decipher what she meant. She told the Inquest:

"When I went into the court, opposite the lodging-house I saw a man with a wideawake. There was no one talking to him. He was a stout-looking man, and not very tall. The hat was black. I did not take any notice of his clothes. The man was looking up the court; he seemed to be waiting or looking for some one. (This has to be Hutchinson). Further on there was a man and woman - the later being in drink. There was nobody in the court. I dozed in a chair at Mrs. Keyler's, and woke at about half- past three. I heard the clock strike."

I think though she just muddled the events. She sees Hutchinson standing as if waiting for someone. Further on from him she sees a man and a woman the latter in drink. Then entering the court no one was there.
Lewis did not say when she arrived at Millers Court, she said she was there at 2:30 am, that is when the church chimes the half-hour. We know this because she also said she heard the same clock chime 3:30, so we know it chimed at 2:30, and in her testimony she told the court she was AT Millers Court at 2:30, not that she ARRIVED at 2:30.
She also says she knew the time because she looked up at the clock as she passed, but she doesn't say what that time was. It could have been 2:05, 2:10, or 2:15, but she just doesn't say.
Yet you are trying to insist it must have been 2:30, when by your own estimation it couldn't have been 2:30 because Hutchinson had to be watching the Court by 2:15, which was when Lewis arrived, give or take a minute or two.

Bowyer was asked when he last saw Kelly alive at the Inquest:

By the Jury: When did you see her last alive ? - On Wednesday afternoon, in the court, when I spoke to her. McCarthy's shop is at the corner of Miller's-court.
Yes, and he told the truth, but the coroner did not pursue the questioning, that is the issue.


What your reply shows is that you are confused over the sequence of events because of your choice to ignore meaningful evidence (re Kennedy & Lewis), in preference to guesswork. And for some reason a refusal to accept Hutchinson was telling the truth.
If you just accept what is written it all falls into place much easier.
Regards, Jon S.

[miss marple]

Finding evidence of Mrs Kennedy and the Keylors, Kaylors. is proving very difficult.The Sarah Emma Kennedy in the 1891 census is Sarah Emma Moss who married Daniel Kennedy in Wandsworth in 1878. So far have found nothing.

miss marple

[Varqm]

Mrs Kennedy's statement is of the upmost importance least of all because it corroborates a lot of what Sarah Lewis said.
And since her statement was taken on the ninth the police would be fully aware of this very important witness, yet she was not called to the inquest we have to ask our selfs why? A woman selling a story she had heard second hand to a newspaper reporter only too willing to pay a shilling or even just for a hot cup of tea and a roll looking for a scoop.

I agree.Aside from other reasons,Lewis's\Kennedy story was probably the same as described below, only the time,Lewis 2:30 - Kennedy 3:00,was different.

The Star
Largest Circulation of Any Evening Paper in the Kingdom.
LONDON. SATURDAY, 10 NOVEMBER, 1888.

Miller's-court or McCarthy's-court - was vigilantly kept by two constables, who allowed no one to pass except by special favor, and showed especial zeal in the exclusion of reporters.
The desire to be interesting has had its effect on the people who live in the Dorset-street-court and lodging-houses, and for whoever cares to listen there are A HUNDRED HIGHLY CIRCUMSTANTIAL STORIES,which, when carefully sifted, prove to be totally devoid of truth.
One woman (as reported below) who lives in the court stated that at about two o'clock she heard a cry of "Murder." This story soon became popular,until at last half a dozen women were retailing it as their own personal experience.Each story contradicted the others with respect to the time at which the cry was heard. A Star reporter who inquired into the matter extracted from one of the women the confession that the story was, as far as she was concerned, a fabrication; and he came to the conclusion that it was to be disregarded.

Elizabeth Prater, a married woman, who has been deserted by her husband, knew Kelly well, she told a Star reporter,...

---

[Varqm]

This supposed cry of Oh murder is another red herring, which researchers are to keen to rely upon in the grand scheme of things.

If someone was about to kill me with a knife the last thing I would think about shouting out is "Oh murder" In the case of a female confronted in this situation loud screams might be the first sounds uttered, but not oh murder !

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

The doctors said death was before 6 am and the cry was at 3:30-3:45 or near 4 and probably the lurking man has significance.Believe in Maxwell instead? Kelly was drunk and/or asleep/half-asleep, Phillips: "leads me to the conclusion that the severance of the right carotid artery, which was the immediate cause of death, was inflicted while the deceased was lying at the right side of the bedstead," when the killer struck so a cry was not unusual.How far would the killer be for Kelly to have time to say "Murder" or "Oh murder".3 feet,should be more,the killer could extend his arm.

Echo
London, U.K.
10 November 1888

Dr. Phillips has only vaguely indicated to the local police the result of his investigations, but a report on the question has, it has been asserted, been jointly made by him and Dr. Bond, and submitted to Sir Charles Warren. It is believed to be the medical opinion hat the woman was killed in her sleep,
or while in a partially comatose condition arising from drink.

I would think you would fight instead of "cry",Trevor/somebody else with a pillow would beat JTR with a knife.


-----

[Wickerman]

An hour before the scream of "Murder!", on the corner of Dorset Street, Mrs Kennedy says she saw a drunken woman having an altercation with a creepy man by whom she herself been accosted in Bethnal Green. Why would Macdonald (sorry, I said Crawford earlier) choose not to have this potentially significant testimony put on the official record? Unless it was a pile of bull, of course.

But Lewis saw the same 'creepy' man, so its not like Kennedy's sighting went unacknowledged. Lewis also saw the loiterer, Kennedy didn't.

I'm not trying to say that Macdonald conducted the perfect inquest, he didn't, certainly not from an inquisitive point of view. He may have erred in his judgement on selection. But, I'm only saying Macdonald knew what Kennedy saw, he had her police statement. So it's not like what she saw went unknown.
Macdonald decided to not call her as a witness, which is no reflection on her statement. Hundreds were also bypassed with no reflection on them either.
All these witnesses had to be paid for, and it seems Macdoald was a penny-pincher. some didn't even get paid.

[Sam Flynn]

I made a list of familiar names in the 1891 census of the East End last year.

10 named Sarah Lewis.
1 named Sarah Emma Kennedy.
1 " Sarah Ronee
1 " Mary Ann Cox.
1 Callagher family.
1 Kaylor family.

...and a Paumier in a pear tree

[Sam Flynn]

An hour before the scream of "Murder!", on the corner of Dorset Street, Mrs Kennedy says she saw a drunken woman having an altercation with a creepy man by whom she herself been accosted in Bethnal Green. Why would Macdonald (sorry, I said Crawford earlier) choose not to have this potentially significant testimony put on the official record? Unless it was a pile of bull, of course.

[Wickerman]

I'd like to know, too, but I can't remember anyone definitely tracking them down.

I made a list of familiar names in the 1891 census of the East End last year.

10 named Sarah Lewis.
1 named Sarah Emma Kennedy.
1 " Sarah Ronee
1 " Mary Ann Cox.
1 Callagher family.
1 Kaylor family.

I had to break off the search and never completed it.

[Wickerman]

But Kennedy was also placed in the room opposite Kelly's, and heard the fateful cry of "Murder" which might have indicated TOD, and which would have served to corroborat Lewis.

Substantiating a story falls under investigation, a coroner is not investigating, that is the role of the police.
Macdonald has already read all the available witness statements, he knows Kennedy heard the same as Lewis, from the same location. Therefore, he has no cause to call a second witness to the same evidence.

Did Crawford flip a coin to decide between Kennedy and Lewis?

No, Lewis saw the loiterer, Kennedy didn't. A loiterer outside the murder scene is of more value to the inquest, Lewis gets to testify.

For that matter, if all that was required by the inquest was to establish time and manner of death, and Crawford was such a stickler, why did he bother getting Prater to testify? She, too, heard the same cry as Lewis and Kennedy after all, but offered precious little else.

Yes, but Prater' evidence is not the same as Lewis's. Prater did not verify Cox's story, and could testify as to the murder room being quiet, dark and presumably empty after 1:00 am.
Lewis could not.

At least Kennedy saw a potential Mary Kelly having an altercation with a creepy man that night, which is more than any other witness did, Lewis included.

Yes, according to Kennedy the victim was seen alive & well at about 3:00 am. But, don't forget, Macdonald has already read this in her police statement. He knows what she saw.
I think you are approaching this from the perspective that, if the coroner does not hear a witness, then he does not know the evidence. This is not true.
Macdonald already knows Kennedy's story, that her statement verifies Lewis - so why call both?

Morris Lewis's story verified, to a point, that of Mrs Maxwell, but M.Lewis was not called. If you compare the stories of M.Lewis & Maxwell, the latter's story was more informative for the court than that of M.Lewis.
Maxwell gets the summons to appear.

If Kennedy had approached Millers Court from another direction and seen different people along the way, her story would be different, except that she also heard the cry of murder at the same time. Quite possibly she would have been called as, like Prater, Kennedy could provide more circumstantial details not mentioned by another witness.

Prater had a much different story to tell from Lewis, but it ended with the same cry. Kennedy had a very similar story to tell as Lewis, and it also ended with the same cry.
Lewis & Prater are issued with a summons, Kennedy is not.

[Sam Flynn]

Surely if Kelly was either of the women seen by Kennedy, she was the one who was "poorly clad, without any headgear" rather than the drunken one having the altercation with the man

We don't know either way. If anything, that particular woman's being the worse for drink would have counted in favor of her being Kelly, as evidence showed that she had been drunk that night, and - per Maxwell - was hung over the next morning.

[Joshua Rogan]

At least Kennedy saw a potential Mary Kelly having an altercation with a creepy man that night, which is more than any other witness did, Lewis included.

Surely if Kelly was either of the women seen by Kennedy, she was the one who was "poorly clad, without any headgear" rather than the drunken one having the altercation with the man?

"There was a young man, respectably dressed, and with a dark moustache, talking to a woman whom she did not know, and also a woman poorly clad, without any headgear. The man and woman appeared to be the worse for liquor, and she heard the man ask, "Are you coming?" whereupon the woman, who appeared to be obstinate, turned in an opposite direction to which the man apparently wished her to go"

Not that the man couldn't have switched his attention to her the moment Kennedy entered the court, of course.

Or do you think this could be Mrs Cox, perhaps, returning home to warm her hands?

[Sam Flynn]

how old were the keylers? anyone know?

I'd like to know, too, but I can't remember anyone definitely tracking them down.