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Mizen's inquest statement reconstructed

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  • Fisherman
    replied
    Originally posted by Elamarna View Post
    Here you go Frank

    Police-constable Mizen said that on Friday morning, about a quarter to four, he was in Baker’s-row, at the corner of Hanbury-street. A man passed, who looked like a carman, and said “You are wanted round in Buck’s-row”. A carman was brought in court, and witness said he was the man. He went round and found Police-constable Neil with the deceased. At Neil’s suggestion he went for the ambulance, and afterwards assisted to remove the body. Blood was running from her neck.


    Given the missing comments about assisting loading the body, i have concluded the echo has edited out and combined the response. Such is in keeping with the other reports.
    But who knows.
    The later descriptions, when moving the body, fit the medical facts better it must be said..
    But it remains inconclusive, although i think probability argues for when he assists rather than first arrival.

    I must say overall a very fair attempt to reconstruct Mizen's testimony.

    Cheers

    Steve
    Yes, Franks reconstruction seems a very fair one, I agree.

    But I don´t agree at all with the idea that Mizens comments about how the blood would have been tied to when he helped loading the body onto the ambulance.

    The idea that if more papers have a wording, then that wording is the correct one, is not something I would ascribe to myself other than on a very general level.

    Only the Morning Advertiser disclosed that Mizen did not lay the text out in detail about how close Paul and Lechmere were, but instead only answered "yes" to a question we cannot know.

    So one newspaper can be more worth than eleven others that miss out on such an imperative matter.

    In the case at hand, just as Frank says, the order of things implies that Mizen answered about the occasion when he first arrived at the body. And Mizen points out that the blood appeared fresh, something he would reasonably not say with the background knowledge that the body had been cut at least half an hour earlier. And he does not say that the blood started to flow as the body was lifted onto the ambulance, he says that there "was blood running from the throat towards the gutter".

    All in all, the way I see it, the much better suggestion is that he spoke of the first time he saw the body. And far from saying that the Echo must be wrong since it is in minority, we may need to be thankful that the Echo laid things down in a clearer way than some of the rest.
    Last edited by Fisherman; 06-15-2018, 12:49 AM.

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  • Elamarna
    replied
    Originally posted by FrankO View Post
    Thanks for your feedback, Steve!
    Could you post the one by the Evening Post of 3 September? Unlike the Evening Standard of 4 September, I can't find it.
    It's indeed the Echo that does that (and only the Echo):
    "...Witness went there, and saw Constable Neil, who sent him to the station for the ambulance.

    The Coroner - Was there anyone else there then? - No one at all, Sir. There was blood running from the throat towards the gutter.

    By the Coroner - There was another man in company of Cross when the latter spoke to witness. The other man, who went down Hanbury-street, appeared to be working with Cross."


    I figured that, since Baxter's question above refers to when Mizen arrives at the crime scene for the first time and the answer to that question is immediately followed by Mizen's remarks on the blood, that this also took place when Mizen arrived at the scene for the first time.

    Cheers,
    Frank

    Here you go Frank

    Police-constable Mizen said that on Friday morning, about a quarter to four, he was in Baker’s-row, at the corner of Hanbury-street. A man passed, who looked like a carman, and said “You are wanted round in Buck’s-row”. A carman was brought in court, and witness said he was the man. He went round and found Police-constable Neil with the deceased. At Neil’s suggestion he went for the ambulance, and afterwards assisted to remove the body. Blood was running from her neck.


    Given the missing comments about assisting loading the body, i have concluded the echo has edited out and combined the response. Such is in keeping with the other reports.
    But who knows.
    The later descriptions, when moving the body, fit the medical facts better it must be said..
    But it remains inconclusive, although i think probability argues for when he assists rather than first arrival.

    I must say overall a very fair attempt to reconstruct Mizen's testimony.

    Cheers

    Steve

    Leave a comment:


  • FrankO
    replied
    Thanks for your feedback, Steve!
    Originally posted by Elamarna View Post
    I used 12 reports, some of which do not cover the whole testimony.
    Could you post the one by the Evening Post of 3 September? Unlike the Evening Standard of 4 September, I can't find it.
    While we may have used different reports can I ask which reports place the question at the earlier stage apart from that in the Echo.
    It's indeed the Echo that does that (and only the Echo):
    "...Witness went there, and saw Constable Neil, who sent him to the station for the ambulance.

    The Coroner - Was there anyone else there then? - No one at all, Sir. There was blood running from the throat towards the gutter.

    By the Coroner - There was another man in company of Cross when the latter spoke to witness. The other man, who went down Hanbury-street, appeared to be working with Cross."


    I figured that, since Baxter's question above refers to when Mizen arrives at the crime scene for the first time and the answer to that question is immediately followed by Mizen's remarks on the blood, that this also took place when Mizen arrived at the scene for the first time.

    Cheers,
    Frank

    Leave a comment:


  • Elamarna
    replied
    Originally posted by FrankO View Post
    Hi all,

    In the hope of getting a better view of it, I’ve tried to reconstruct Mizen’s inquest statement using the 10 newspaper snippets that I could find representing his inquest appearance. The blue-coloured text is what I added.

    Feel free to comment.

    Police constable Jonas Mizen), 56 H, said - On Friday morning last, at about a quarter to four, I was at the end of Hanbury street, Baker's row, when someone who was passing said, "You're wanted down there" (pointing to Buck's row).
    *
    The man, whose name is Charles Cross, was brought in and witness identified him as the man who spoke to him on the morning in question. He came into the courtroom in a coarse sacking apron, appeared to be a carman and he had come from Buck's-row.
    *
    I asked him what was the matter, and Cross replied, "A policeman wants you; there is a woman lying there." I went up Buck's row and saw a policeman shining his light on the pavement. He said, "Go for an ambulance," and I at once went to the station and returned with it. I assisted to remove the body.

    The Coroner - Was there anyone else there when you saw this policeman for the first time?
    Mizen - No one at all, Sir.

    The Coroner – Did you notice any blood then?
    Mizen - There was blood running from the throat towards the gutter.

    The blood appeared fresh. There was only one pool; it was somewhat congealed.

    The Coroner - There was another man in company with Cross?
    Mizen - Yes. I think he was also a carman.

    The other man appeared to be working with Cross.

    The Coroner – Where did Cross and the other man go to (after you spoke to Cross)?
    Mizen - Both of them/both (afterwards) went down Hanbury-street.

    The Coroner – Did you make haste after you finished talking to Cross?
    Mizen – I was engaged in knocking people up when Cross spoke to me. He told me a policeman wanted me. He did not say anything about murder or suicide.

    A juryman - Did you continue knocking people up after Cross told you you were wanted?
    Mizen - No. I finished knocking at the one place where I was at the time, giving two or three knocks, and then went directly to Buck's-row, not wanting to knock up anyone else.

    I'm sure that a question was asked right after the question if there was someone in company with Cross, the answer to which included the words "went down Hanbury Street". As there are 3 newspapers that printed these words and 2 of those wrote that "both" went down Hanbury Street, it seems fair to suppose that the question indeed included both men, not just Paul.

    The best,
    Frank
    Hi Frank that seems very good on the whole, however I would question the timing of the question on the bleeding.

    I used 12 reports, some of which do not cover the whole testimony.

    The reports suggest that on arrival he was sent to get the ambulance, and on returning with it assisted removing body and his description of the bleeding is from this time period such is supported by reports in the Star and Evening Post 3rd and Morning Adveriser and Evening Standard 4th.

    Only one of the 12 reports is different and may be interpreted as being from before the ambulance, The Echo 3rd. However this report contains no account about assisting in removing the body and it maybe that as been excised by the editor of the report.

    While we may have used different reports can I ask which reports place the question at the earlier stage apart from that in the Echo.

    Very useful work Frank


    Steve

    Leave a comment:


  • FrankO
    started a topic Mizen's inquest statement reconstructed

    Mizen's inquest statement reconstructed

    Hi all,

    In the hope of getting a better view of it, I’ve tried to reconstruct Mizen’s inquest statement using the 10 newspaper snippets that I could find representing his inquest appearance. The blue-coloured text is what I added.

    Feel free to comment.

    Police constable Jonas Mizen), 56 H, said - On Friday morning last, at about a quarter to four, I was at the end of Hanbury street, Baker's row, when someone who was passing said, "You're wanted down there" (pointing to Buck's row).
    *
    The man, whose name is Charles Cross, was brought in and witness identified him as the man who spoke to him on the morning in question. He came into the courtroom in a coarse sacking apron, appeared to be a carman and he had come from Buck's-row.
    *
    I asked him what was the matter, and Cross replied, "A policeman wants you; there is a woman lying there." I went up Buck's row and saw a policeman shining his light on the pavement. He said, "Go for an ambulance," and I at once went to the station and returned with it. I assisted to remove the body.

    The Coroner - Was there anyone else there when you saw this policeman for the first time?
    Mizen - No one at all, Sir.

    The Coroner – Did you notice any blood then?
    Mizen - There was blood running from the throat towards the gutter.

    The blood appeared fresh. There was only one pool; it was somewhat congealed.

    The Coroner - There was another man in company with Cross?
    Mizen - Yes. I think he was also a carman.

    The other man appeared to be working with Cross.

    The Coroner – Where did Cross and the other man go to (after you spoke to Cross)?
    Mizen - Both of them/both (afterwards) went down Hanbury-street.

    The Coroner – Did you make haste after you finished talking to Cross?
    Mizen – I was engaged in knocking people up when Cross spoke to me. He told me a policeman wanted me. He did not say anything about murder or suicide.

    A juryman - Did you continue knocking people up after Cross told you you were wanted?
    Mizen - No. I finished knocking at the one place where I was at the time, giving two or three knocks, and then went directly to Buck's-row, not wanting to knock up anyone else.

    I'm sure that a question was asked right after the question if there was someone in company with Cross, the answer to which included the words "went down Hanbury Street". As there are 3 newspapers that printed these words and 2 of those wrote that "both" went down Hanbury Street, it seems fair to suppose that the question indeed included both men, not just Paul.

    The best,
    Frank
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