Caroline Maxwell Alibi ?

[Debra A]

Hi Debs

I think you could be right on this issue. Eddowes clothing was described and documented with cuts at varying angles, and of varying sizes, all around the waist and abdominal area, with connecting blood stains, which to me might indicate she was stabbed several times through the outer clothing, and the knife drawn down or across. However it seems there are several here who dont subscribe to that view, but have failed to come up with plausible alternatives for these specific cuts, and the connecting blood stains.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Yes, that's what made me think he might have had an influence somehow, Trevor. Also he describes making sketches of the original position a body was found in and noting the position of surrounding objects, furniture etc. Outdoors this would probably translate to noting landmarks? Similar to the sketches done of Eddowes.

[Trevor Marriott]

Meymott tidy is an interesting character and was the City of London public health public analyst before Sedgewick Saunders took over and also worked at the London Hospital. He died quite young in 1892 so his work is all contemporary to the Whitechapel cases. He has a particularly interesting chapter about the treatment of crime scenes and suggests that sketches of crime scenes should be taken and be detailed and labelled with anything that might have a bearing on the crime, and that a description of a victim's clothing should be carefully described, including any weapon marks on them. I have often mentioned in the past that I wondered if Tidy's ideas had any influence on the way the forensic detail in Catherine Eddowes' murder was dealt with in the City.

Hi Debs

I think you could be right on this issue. Eddowes clothing was described and documented with cuts at varying angles, and of varying sizes, all around the waist and abdominal area, with connecting blood stains, which to me might indicate she was stabbed several times through the outer clothing, and the knife drawn down or across. However it seems there are several here who dont subscribe to that view, but have failed to come up with plausible alternatives for these specific cuts, and the connecting blood stains.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Debra A]

Thankyou Debs.

Have you happened to see any papers on the topic (like you mention above) explaining how they understood this effect to work in 1888?
I don't see anything at present.

Jon, this is the chapter on Rigor from Tidy's 1882 text book that I mentioned. It describes a chemical reaction involved in the onset of Rigor and references Kuhne's discovery of Myosin, but as I said earlier, I am not sure if they have it totally correct or not because I do not know what the chemical process is myself. I do notice though that the opening line of one paragraph describing the process involved says: " Furthermore, it is independent of temperature.."

https://archive.org/stream/legalmedicine01tidyiala#page/50/mode/2up/search/the+signs+of+death

Meymott tidy is an interesting character and was the City of London public health public analyst before Sedgewick Saunders took over and also worked at the London Hospital. He died quite young in 1892 so his work is all contemporary to the Whitechapel cases. He has a particularly interesting chapter about the treatment of crime scenes and suggests that sketches of crime scenes should be taken and be detailed and labelled with anything that might have a bearing on the crime, and that a description of a victim's clothing should be carefully described, including any weapon marks on them. I have often mentioned in the past that I wondered if Tidy's ideas had any influence on the way the forensic detail in Catherine Eddowes' murder was dealt with in the City.

https://archive.org/stream/legalmedicine01tidyiala#page/256/mode/2up/search/crime

[DJA]

I just threw that in so as to be on topic

[packers stem]

Suspect Maxwell had her days mixed up.

This is without a doubt the lamest excuse for dismissing the most reliable of witnesses to fit into a theory .
For those people on that street that discovery was a 9/11 moment ..... you don't get that day wrong
Has anyone ever suggested similar with any other witness ?
"Oooh , I can't make her fit, let's brand her a complete imbecile , then we can write off Maurice Lewis as he wasn't called to the inquest and ignore the unnamed witness in the times , jobs a good un" Ripperology at its finest 😀

[DJA]

Yet, two women arriving at No.2 Millers Court, 30 minutes apart is too much of a coincidence to believe????

Keyler and Lewis?

[Wickerman]

Thanks, Jon.
The knowledge about it being a chemical process was out there then?

Kühne's ideas were picked up by the Lancet by 81 and also Charles Meymott Tidy, chemist, solicitor, author of a popular 80's medical jurisprudence text and public health and analyst for the City of London in the mid eighties,(taken over by Sedgewick Saunders) also referenced Kühne and the Lancet article in his jurisprudence text on the chapter dealing with rigor.

Thankyou Debs.

Have you happened to see any papers on the topic (like you mention above) explaining how they understood this effect to work in 1888?
I don't see anything at present.

[Wickerman]

Yet, two women arriving at No.2 Millers Court, 30 minutes apart is too much of a coincidence to believe????

[DJA]

Especially the wounds to the lower abdomens of Nichols and Eddowes

[Sam Flynn]

All coincidences

Yes, almost certainly.

[DJA]

In a thoroughfare full of common lodging houses, housing the best part of a thousand people, it's hardly surprising if more than one Ripper victim had some connection to Dorset Street, or "Dosset Street" as it was sometimes known.

Four in Dorset Street and two in Flower and Dean,not to mention Thrawl Street.

Eddowes and Nichols were probably Jack's inpatients together in 1867/68 with Rheumatic fever,caused by Strep pyogenes which takes up residence in the intestines.

Nichols moves in next door to Eddowes.
Eddowes goes hopping and days later Nichols is killed.

Nichols and Chapman both killed around Hanbury Street,Jack's route home from London Hospital.

Next street after Hanbury is Spital Square where Dr Phillips resided.
Street after that is Primrose,where the parents of a child who lived with Hutchinson lived.

Eddowes returns for a reward,thinking she knows who Jack is.

All coincidences

Suspect Maxwell had her days mixed up.

[Debra A]

Yes, myosin fibers.
I've also seen is suggested that the cramp we get periodically, which is due in part to a buildup of lactic acid, also is a contributing factor in Rigor Mortis.
There are contesting opinions on this.

Thanks, Jon.
The knowledge about it being a chemical process was out there then?

Kühne's ideas were picked up by the Lancet by 81 and also Charles Meymott Tidy, chemist, solicitor, author of a popular 80's medical jurisprudence text and public health and analyst for the City of London in the mid eighties,(taken over by Sedgewick Saunders) also referenced Kühne and the Lancet article in his jurisprudence text on the chapter dealing with rigor.

[Sam Flynn]

In a thoroughfare full of common lodging houses, housing the best part of a thousand people, it's hardly surprising if more than one Ripper victim had some connection to Dorset Street, or "Dosset Street" as it was sometimes known.

[Wickerman]

C 1881, Kuhne suggested Rigor was caused by a chemical act involving myosin. I'm not sure if he had it exactly, but was he along the right lines?

Yes, myosin fibers.
I've also seen is suggested that the cramp we get periodically, which is due in part to a buildup of lactic acid, also is a contributing factor in Rigor Mortis.
There are contesting opinions on this.

[DJA]

Think it was a residency built over stables, next door to Millers Court.