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Caroline Maxwell Alibi ?

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  • #61
    Right, so Jack killed Mary at say between nine and ten in the morning. The cry of Murder at around 4 in the morning, right smack in between the two Doctor's death estimates was entirely coincidental even though Sarah Lewis thought it came from the direction of Mary's room, and Elizabeth Prater thought it was somewhere in the court also. After all the cry was common though. Elizabeth Prater said, in most accounts, the cry was common from the street, not the court.
    When Catherine Pickett went banging on Mary's door at 7 30 in the morning, she wasn't dead, just asleep or out and about, even though nobody saw her out and about at that time and if the knocking did wake Mary up, she then got dressed, went out and got herself some ale, drunk it, threw it up, ate some fish and potatoes, possibly had to cook the meal all in an hour with the horrors of drink on her. Whilst nobody saw her going out, probably buying the ale and throwing it back up. Speaking of nobody seeing her, nobody saw her bring a client back between nine and ten, or probably solicit him for that matter [ apart from possibly Mrs Maxwell, plaid coat man] on Dorset st at the closest, maybe even on Commercial rd even though it was probably busy around that time, including her landlord or his assistant who probably would have asked her for his weekly rent [ note weekly IE probably paid on the same day each week Friday, not Thursday night]. Nobody saw Mary from the court put her hand through the broken window either, though said window leads directly on to the court. And the killer was really in luck because nobody saw him leave Mary's room half an hour later in broad daylight. Lucky for him he changed his MO from being a night stalker killing undercover of darkness, where he could more likely, [and did] slip away during the night.
    Speaking of darkness Abberlines perfectly plausible explanation of the remains of the ladies clothing in the grate being burnt to give the killer light must be wrong, after all, he really wouldn't need that light at ten in the morning. so why Mary burnt some clothing, [possibly Maria Harvey's] is anyone's guess.
    As is why Mrs Maxwell was interviewed on the ninth, and yet because her testimony disagreed wholly with what the police thought, why the Police, who would surely have asked around didn't find anybody else to testify on the twelve to back the timing of her death [mid morning], three days later even though say, Maria Harvey, testified without really adding anything to when Mary was killed. Strange that.
    Oh, and I almost forgot Maurice Lewis who saw Mary even later and in a pub drinking with people at that. The killer must have worked at the speed of light to get mary back to her room unseen and then cut her up and leave all within forty-five mins
    Ps Apologies if I am wrong but I cannot find anywhere were Mary told Caroline that she was from Limerick. Only - I believe she was from Limerick, or I heard etc
    PPS None of the above is beyond conjecture but, [to my mind] when you take it as a whole, it is difficult for me to believe that Mary was' killed mid-morning.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by DJA View Post
      Because she told him she was coming into some money on the 9th and would settle the full arrears then.
      And he never thought to mention this to the police?

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by packers stem View Post
        DJA: "suspect Maxwell had her days mixed up"

        This is without a doubt the lamest excuse for dismissing the most reliable of witnesses to fit into a theory .
        For those people on that street that discovery was a 9/11 moment ..... you don't get that day wrong
        Has anyone ever suggested similar with any other witness ?
        "Oooh , I can't make her fit, let's brand her a complete imbecile , then we can write off Maurice Lewis as he wasn't called to the inquest and ignore the unnamed witness in the times , jobs a good un" Ripperology at its finest 😀
        It may be lame but it's not Dave's idea;

        Daily News 13th Nov
        As to the evidence of the woman Caroline Maxwell, who swore that she saw the deceased at eight or nine o'clock on Friday morning, that is regarded by the police as merely an error of date. No doubt she did see the woman, and spoke to her as she stated, but on Thursday morning instead of Friday.

        Daily Telegraph
        On all hands the evidence of the witness who declares that she saw Kelly between eight and nine o'clock on Friday morning, is put down to error, the common impression being that the witness is thinking of what happened on probably the previous day.

        Do you know the source of the milk shop corroboration for Maxwell's story?

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Darryl Kenyon View Post
          Elizabeth Prater said, in most accounts, the cry was common from the street, not the court.
          That said, we have this nugget from the Echo, in what appears to be a more-or-less verbatim transcript:

          [Crawford] Where did the sound seem to come from?
          [Prater] Up the court, somewhere. I did not hear it a second time. I did not take any notice of it. Then I went to sleep.

          I can't see why they should have made that up, so it's a pretty good bet that Prater did indeed hear the cry of "Murder" emanating from somewhere in Miller's Court itself.
          Kind regards, Sam Flynn

          "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
            That said, we have this nugget from the Echo, in what appears to be a more-or-less verbatim transcript:

            [Crawford] Where did the sound seem to come from?
            [Prater] Up the court, somewhere. I did not hear it a second time. I did not take any notice of it. Then I went to sleep.

            I can't see why they should have made that up, so it's a pretty good bet that Prater did indeed hear the cry of "Murder" emanating from somewhere in Miller's Court itself.
            But likewise a good bet that it was a common cry, if it was considered a genuine Cry for help would you roll over, go back to sleep, then tell the whole world (or readership of The Echo) that’s what you did
            G U T

            There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
              That said, we have this nugget from the Echo, in what appears to be a more-or-less verbatim transcript:

              [Crawford] Where did the sound seem to come from?
              [Prater] Up the court, somewhere. I did not hear it a second time. I did not take any notice of it. Then I went to sleep.

              I can't see why they should have made that up, so it's a pretty good bet that Prater did indeed hear the cry of "Murder" emanating from somewhere in Miller's Court itself.
              Hi Sam, yes I agree, most of the quotes from the press attributed to Elizabeth Prater hint that the cry of murder was generally from the street or neighbourhood. Only one paper [as far as I can tell] says that cries where common from the court. So this cry from the night of the murder was probably unusual. And like you say it would be strange for her to make it up. There is an excellent article by Wickerman from the other site correlating all the newspaper reports from the Kelly inquest.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Darryl Kenyon View Post
                Hi Sam, yes I agree, most of the quotes from the press attributed to Elizabeth Prater hint that the cry of murder was generally from the street or neighbourhood.
                She did say that such cries were common in the neighbourhood, but that was a general comment which may have been confused with her response to Crawford's direct question as to the source of this specific cry as reported in the Echo.
                Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by GUT View Post
                  But likewise a good bet that it was a common cry, if it was considered a genuine Cry for help would you roll over, go back to sleep, then tell the whole world (or readership of The Echo) that’s what you did
                  Her reaction to it is one thing, but the explicit description of its coming from somewhere in the Court is another.
                  Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                  "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    A quick perusal of the press seems to show that the specific cry heard by Prater came from the court (or the room below), but similar cries were common in the street, court or neighbourhood.

                    Times
                    The sound appeared to proceed from the court and near where witness was. She did not take much notice of it, however, as they were continually hearing cries of murder in the court.

                    Star
                    Being used to cries of alarm in that neighbourhood, I did not take much notice, but dropped off to sleep.

                    St James Gazette
                    She had often heard cries of murder near the court, and therefore she took no particular notice.

                    Morning Advertiser
                    Such a cry is not unusual, and I did not take any particular notice.

                    Echo
                    Where did the sound seem to come from? - Up the court, somewhere. I did not hear it a second time. I did not take any notice of it. Then I went to sleep.

                    ELA
                    Almost immediately she heard a faint cry of "Oh! Murder!" In the neighborhood it was a common thing to hear a cry of "Murder," so witness took no notice of it. The noise appeared to come from a room under her own.

                    Daily Telegraph
                    It seemed to proceed from the court.
                    Do you often hear cries of "Murder ?" - It is nothing unusual in the street. I did not take particular notice.

                    Daily News
                    You took no particular notice of it?-No, such a cry is nothing in the streets, Sir, and nobody takes any notice. The cry seemed to come from the court.

                    Interestingly, Sarah Lewis also heard the cry and gave the same reason as Liz Prater for ignoring it, mentioning in one report (Daily News) an earlier disturbance in the court.

                    Sarah Lewis
                    I heard a female voice shout "Murder!" It seemed like a young woman's voice. There was only one scream. I did not take any notice, especially as a short time before there had been a row in the court.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Thanks, Josh. So it looks like things might have gone something like this:

                      Prater - I heard a cry of "Murder!"

                      (Crawford - Where did the sound seem to come from?

                      Prater - Somewhere in the Court.

                      Crawford - Did you hear another?

                      Prater - I did not hear it a second time, and)
                      I didn't take much notice of it.

                      Crawford - Why?

                      Prater - Such cries are not unusual in the neighbourhood.



                      The dialogue bracketed in blue, locating the cry somewhere in Miller's Court, was carried, in various forms, by several papers - specifically the Times, Telegraph, Echo, Daily News and East London Advertiser. As to the other papers, it seems that the crucial part of Prater's testimony, locating the cry in Miller's Court, ended up on the cutting-room floor; thus leaving us with the rather bland and uninformative "I heard a cry, but ignored it as such cries are common", or equivalent.

                      I enjoyed that. A useful exercise in understanding the workings of the press, if not getting into the heads of the newspaper editors
                      Last edited by Sam Flynn; 06-19-2018, 04:17 AM.
                      Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                      "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Hi,
                        I have asked this before many years ago, but as newcomers are in the group maybe they might know.?
                        I read either a book/or article in 1975, which uses this account of Mrs Maxwell's statement.
                        ''Her eyes looked queer, as if suffering from a heavy cold''
                        I mentioned this to Colin Wilson in a communication .
                        I can find no account of that statement anywhere, but it must have been written, I remember it clearly, as I was travelling to Hove Greyhounds via train, and after reading this which I took with me,? I could not concentrate for the rest of the evening.
                        I have been told that D McCormack used the term ''All muffled up with a cold,'' but not the same as mine.
                        It would have major significance if Maxwell saw Kelly with cold at 8.15am the 9th, because it will be on par with Hutchinson stating Kelly asked for a handkerchief at 2,pm. which would give a pointer to both parties telling the truth.
                        Regards Richard.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Darryl Kenyon View Post
                          Right, so Jack killed Mary at say between nine and ten in the morning. The cry of Murder at around 4 in the morning, right smack in between the two Doctor's death estimates was entirely coincidental even though Sarah Lewis thought it came from the direction of Mary's room, and Elizabeth Prater thought it was somewhere in the court also. After all the cry was common though. Elizabeth Prater said, in most accounts, the cry was common from the street, not the court.
                          When Catherine Pickett went banging on Mary's door at 7 30 in the morning, she wasn't dead, just asleep or out and about, even though nobody saw her out and about at that time and if the knocking did wake Mary up, she then got dressed, went out and got herself some ale, drunk it, threw it up, ate some fish and potatoes, possibly had to cook the meal all in an hour with the horrors of drink on her. Whilst nobody saw her going out, probably buying the ale and throwing it back up. Speaking of nobody seeing her, nobody saw her bring a client back between nine and ten, or probably solicit him for that matter [ apart from possibly Mrs Maxwell, plaid coat man] on Dorset st at the closest, maybe even on Commercial rd even though it was probably busy around that time, including her landlord or his assistant who probably would have asked her for his weekly rent [ note weekly IE probably paid on the same day each week Friday, not Thursday night]. Nobody saw Mary from the court put her hand through the broken window either, though said window leads directly on to the court. And the killer was really in luck because nobody saw him leave Mary's room half an hour later in broad daylight. Lucky for him he changed his MO from being a night stalker killing undercover of darkness, where he could more likely, [and did] slip away during the night.
                          Speaking of darkness Abberlines perfectly plausible explanation of the remains of the ladies clothing in the grate being burnt to give the killer light must be wrong, after all, he really wouldn't need that light at ten in the morning. so why Mary burnt some clothing, [possibly Maria Harvey's] is anyone's guess.
                          As is why Mrs Maxwell was interviewed on the ninth, and yet because her testimony disagreed wholly with what the police thought, why the Police, who would surely have asked around didn't find anybody else to testify on the twelve to back the timing of her death [mid morning], three days later even though say, Maria Harvey, testified without really adding anything to when Mary was killed. Strange that.
                          Oh, and I almost forgot Maurice Lewis who saw Mary even later and in a pub drinking with people at that. The killer must have worked at the speed of light to get mary back to her room unseen and then cut her up and leave all within forty-five mins
                          Ps Apologies if I am wrong but I cannot find anywhere were Mary told Caroline that she was from Limerick. Only - I believe she was from Limerick, or I heard etc
                          PPS None of the above is beyond conjecture but, [to my mind] when you take it as a whole, it is difficult for me to believe that Mary was' killed mid-morning.
                          pretty much agree with all this. re the fire-stoking up a big fire, burning clothes-too tight a time frame for daylight morning murder IMHO.
                          "Is all that we see or seem
                          but a dream within a dream?"

                          -Edgar Allan Poe


                          "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                          quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                          -Frederick G. Abberline

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
                            A quick perusal of the press seems to show that the specific cry heard by Prater came from the court (or the room below), but similar cries were common in the street, court or neighbourhood.

                            Times
                            The sound appeared to proceed from the court and near where witness was. She did not take much notice of it, however, as they were continually hearing cries of murder in the court.

                            Star
                            Being used to cries of alarm in that neighbourhood, I did not take much notice, but dropped off to sleep.

                            St James Gazette
                            She had often heard cries of murder near the court, and therefore she took no particular notice.

                            Morning Advertiser
                            Such a cry is not unusual, and I did not take any particular notice.

                            Echo
                            Where did the sound seem to come from? - Up the court, somewhere. I did not hear it a second time. I did not take any notice of it. Then I went to sleep.

                            ELA
                            Almost immediately she heard a faint cry of "Oh! Murder!" In the neighborhood it was a common thing to hear a cry of "Murder," so witness took no notice of it. The noise appeared to come from a room under her own.

                            Daily Telegraph
                            It seemed to proceed from the court.
                            Do you often hear cries of "Murder ?" - It is nothing unusual in the street. I did not take particular notice.

                            Daily News
                            You took no particular notice of it?-No, such a cry is nothing in the streets, Sir, and nobody takes any notice. The cry seemed to come from the court.

                            Interestingly, Sarah Lewis also heard the cry and gave the same reason as Liz Prater for ignoring it, mentioning in one report (Daily News) an earlier disturbance in the court.

                            Sarah Lewis
                            I heard a female voice shout "Murder!" It seemed like a young woman's voice. There was only one scream. I did not take any notice, especially as a short time before there had been a row in the court.
                            Hi Joshua
                            thanks for this. wasn't either praters or lewis inquest testimony that they heard the cry of murder-"Coming from the deceaseds room" ? or something very similar. as in they thought the cry came from marys room...not somewhere in the court, street etc.
                            "Is all that we see or seem
                            but a dream within a dream?"

                            -Edgar Allan Poe


                            "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                            quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                            -Frederick G. Abberline

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              I wonder if any advocates of 'hands on' Ripperology have actually tried the field experiment by burning a large bundle of old cotton and wool clothing for 'purposes of light'? And did it actually produce any light or just a lot of smoke and smothering?

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                                Hi Joshua
                                thanks for this. wasn't either praters or lewis inquest testimony that they heard the cry of murder-"Coming from the deceaseds room" ? or something very similar. as in they thought the cry came from marys room...not somewhere in the court, street etc.
                                It seems there's no press consensus on where Lewis thought the scream originated. Only a few give a location, and they all seem to be different! That said, there was only 7 or 8 feet between them all, so not varying wildly;

                                Daily Telegraph
                                I sat awake until nearly four, when I heard a female's voice shouting "Murder" loudly. It seemed like the voice of a young woman. It sounded at our door. There was only one scream.

                                ELA
                                A little before 4 o'clock she heard a female's voice scream out "Murder!" loudly, and witness thought that it came from the house opposite.

                                Morning Advertiser
                                A little before four I heard a female shouting "Murder!" once. It was loud, and there was only one shout. The cry was from where the shop is.

                                Comment

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