Caroline Maxwell Alibi ?

[packers stem]

Hi Debra,
I did not intend to paint a squeaky clean picture of McCarthy.
He would have known that because of the conditions in that area, his residents would have had to rely on prostitution to survive, but that does not imply that he used his rents as a brothel.
The Pitch and toss was a illegal game, and I would say McCarthy would have never allowed that to be played in the court, the rear window of his shop looked over the court, and by his admission he could see the comings and goings.
He would have got in trouble for allowing this illegal game to take part about his premises.
We can only guess on the personalities of Mr and Mrs McCarthy. He appears to have been a man that stood no nonsense, and I would say Mrs M, may have had a sympathetic attitude to the women, which is why her husband took a lenient view with Mary, he knew of the local dangers, and at least during this period,may have allowed the owed rent to increase.
Regards Richard.

From.the daily news of the 10th

. "Is it not astounding that he could have gone in and out without being observed by somebody on the court?" was a question put to an intelligent labouring man, a denizen of the neighbourhood. "Not a bit," was the reply, "and you would understand it if you knew the place and the kind of people. Men go in and out there, and nobody thinks anything about them or takes notice of 'em. It's everybody for themselves there."

There are no grounds for believing that McCarthy would care one iota about an illegal game and Maurice Lewis can not be dismissed purely on a personal view of Mr and Mrs McCarthy .
If he admitted he was playing it there then he almost certainly was as if it was that serious then why admit it in a newspaper .
It is , in fact , just stronger confirmation of the truth of the report

[richardnunweek]

Hi Debra,
I did not intend to paint a squeaky clean picture of McCarthy.
He would have known that because of the conditions in that area, his residents would have had to rely on prostitution to survive, but that does not imply that he used his rents as a brothel.
The Pitch and toss was a illegal game, and I would say McCarthy would have never allowed that to be played in the court, the rear window of his shop looked over the court, and by his admission he could see the comings and goings.
He would have got in trouble for allowing this illegal game to take part about his premises.
We can only guess on the personalities of Mr and Mrs McCarthy. He appears to have been a man that stood no nonsense, and I would say Mrs M, may have had a sympathetic attitude to the women, which is why her husband took a lenient view with Mary, he knew of the local dangers, and at least during this period,may have allowed the owed rent to increase.
Regards Richard.

[packers stem]

Or Bower knew her as Barnett

Doubtful seeing as McCarthy initially thought that she lived with a man called 'kelly'

Anyhow
Bit more from Maxwell , same newspaper
" I didn't know then that she had separated from the man she had been living with, and I thought he had been "paying" her. I then went out in the direction of Bishopsgate to do some errands, and on my return I saw Kelly standing outside the public house, talking to a man. That was the last I saw of her.

[GUT]

The Evening news of the 10th

INTERVIEW WITH MRS. MAPWELL (sic)
Mrs. Caroline Mapwell, of 14 Dorset street, the wife of a night watchman at Commercial Chambers, a common lodging house able to shelter 244 persons, and which is opposite the scene of the murder, said: "I have known the murdered woman well for the past six months. This (Friday) morning, as near as possible about half past eight, I saw Mary Jane (the murdered woman) standing outside the court. I said, "What brings you out so early, Mary Jane," and she answered, "I feel very queer. I cannot sleep. I have the horrors of the drink on me, as I have been drinking this last day or two." I said, "Well, I pity you, " and passed on. I then went to Bishopsgate; and on my return, just after nine o'clock, I saw Mary Jane talking to a man at the end of the street. Who he was I do not know. He was a short, stout man, about fifty years of age. I did not notice what he had on, but I saw that he wore a kind of plaid coat. I then went indoors to go to bed, as I had been on duty all night. Mary Jane (I only know her by that name) was a pleasant little woman, rather stout, fair complexion, and rather pale. I should say her age was be about 23. I had no idea she was an unfortunate, for I never saw her with any one, nor have I ever seen her drunk. She was a very quiet young woman, and had been in the neighbourhood about two years. She spoke with a kind of impediment. She belonged, I think, to Limerick, and had evidently been well connected

She knew her as 'Mary Jane ' and that she was from Limerick .
She's not the only one who said they just knew her by the name 'Mary Jane' I'm sure
I think Bowyer said he didn't know her by the name 'kelly' so obviously he knew her by first names only

Or Bower knew her as Barnett

[packers stem]

The description is probably the biggest problem with Lewis' sighting, for me. It contrasts markedly with Liz Prater's impression of Mary as "tall and pretty, and as fair as a lily". And Maxwell actually described her as "a pleasant little woman, rather stout, fair complexion and rather pale". Not a million miles away, but not dark, so not identical. And the"little" might just be a turn of phrase rather than a physical attribute - Mrs Phoenix said she was 5'7".

Incidentally, Mrs Prater had been separated from her husband for 5 years, the same length of time that Lewis claimed to have known Mary. And Mrs Maxwell said she had known Mary about 4 months, the same length of time I think that Mrs Prater had been living in the court. By her own admission, Prater had been drinking heavily the night before, and got up as soon as the pubs opened to get herself another drink.... .could she have had the horrors of drink upon her?

The Evening news of the 10th

INTERVIEW WITH MRS. MAPWELL (sic)
Mrs. Caroline Mapwell, of 14 Dorset street, the wife of a night watchman at Commercial Chambers, a common lodging house able to shelter 244 persons, and which is opposite the scene of the murder, said: "I have known the murdered woman well for the past six months. This (Friday) morning, as near as possible about half past eight, I saw Mary Jane (the murdered woman) standing outside the court. I said, "What brings you out so early, Mary Jane," and she answered, "I feel very queer. I cannot sleep. I have the horrors of the drink on me, as I have been drinking this last day or two." I said, "Well, I pity you, " and passed on. I then went to Bishopsgate; and on my return, just after nine o'clock, I saw Mary Jane talking to a man at the end of the street. Who he was I do not know. He was a short, stout man, about fifty years of age. I did not notice what he had on, but I saw that he wore a kind of plaid coat. I then went indoors to go to bed, as I had been on duty all night. Mary Jane (I only know her by that name) was a pleasant little woman, rather stout, fair complexion, and rather pale. I should say her age was be about 23. I had no idea she was an unfortunate, for I never saw her with any one, nor have I ever seen her drunk. She was a very quiet young woman, and had been in the neighbourhood about two years. She spoke with a kind of impediment. She belonged, I think, to Limerick, and had evidently been well connected

She knew her as 'Mary Jane ' and that she was from Limerick .
She's not the only one who said they just knew her by the name 'Mary Jane' I'm sure
I think Bowyer said he didn't know her by the name 'kelly' so obviously he knew her by first names only

[packers stem]

Nick, I thought about that too but there are reports that say that Joseph Barnett was also known as 'Danny' and worked at Billinsgate on occassion and also as an orange seller. Do you think those reports came as a direct result of Lewis identifying MJK's other half as 'Dan', rather than Joseph?

I've certainly seen reports where Kelly 'lived with a man called Danny' I think then followed by 'until recently ' which on its own always suggested that Lewis knew both brothers but got their names mixed up but taking the Thursday night sighting into account and accepting its accuracy, for the sake of argument ,then it is possible that those other accounts have been second or third hand newspaper accounts which have got a little mixed up between the sighting of Dan with Kelly and Kelly's partner being called Dan .
Love to know why Dan was meant to meet Kelly on the Thursday night and that Joe knew in advance of the meeting as if memory serves he said that Dan was going to meet her and not that he had heard afterwards that he met her

[Debra A]

The description is probably the biggest problem with Lewis' sighting, for me. It contrasts markedly with Liz Prater's impression of Mary as "tall and pretty, and as fair as a lily". And Maxwell actually described her as "a pleasant little woman, rather stout, fair complexion and rather pale". Not a million miles away, but not dark, so not identical. And the"little" might just be a turn of phrase rather than a physical attribute - Mrs Phoenix said she was 5'7".

Incidentally, Mrs Prater had been separated from her husband for 5 years, the same length of time that Lewis claimed to have known Mary. And Mrs Maxwell said she had known Mary about 4 months, the same length of time I think that Mrs Prater had been living in the court. By her own admission, Prater had been drinking heavily the night before, and got up as soon as the pubs opened to get herself another drink.... .could she have had the horrors of drink upon her?

I wondered about Prater too, Josh but it was pointed out to me that both Prater and Maxwell gave evidence at the inquest, giving Maxwell the opportunity to see Prater ad realise her mistake, perhaps?

Was it Mrs Phoenix that also mentioned MJK's buck/protruding/false/wooden front teeth and a speech impediment? And a two year old child?

[Debra A]

There is an article in a recent edition of Ripperologist by Debra where a sketch of Elizabeth was compared to a sketch of Mary. Obviously, the sketches are no means definitive, and they could be a million miles out from what they really looked like, but it is very interesting none the less. Also, I am sure there is an article somewhere were one the women mentions about wearing each other's clothes for the purpose,I think of confusing the Police.

I didn't really compare the two pictures directly Darryl but I did find that the two pictures, (by accident or design) and the lives of these two women were very similar.
We know that Catherine Picket knocked at MJK's door to borrow her shawl that morning, had she done that a few times before and been seen in the neighbourhood wearing it?

[Debra A]

Debs I suspect the best guess is that the two brothers looked similar but as he knew that Kelly lived with one of them until recently , in terms of him recognising Kelly ,it doesn't effect much .

A second point of note is that Maurice Lewis description of Kelly identical to the description that Maxwell gave of her .... short , stout and dark other than Maxwell elaborated by giving her age as well of around 23

Nick, I thought about that too but there are reports that say that Joseph Barnett was also known as 'Danny' and worked at Billinsgate on occassion and also as an orange seller. Do you think those reports came as a direct result of Lewis identifying MJK's other half as 'Dan', rather than Joseph?

[Debra A]

Hi
McCarthy was a well respected person in that area, and I would suggest would never openly allow prostitution in his rents, he would turn a blind eye to a degree, but never to fall foul of the law,
As to allowing the game of Pitch and Toss in Millers court, I would say not in a million years.
Regards Richard.

Hi Richard
I don't think McCarthy bothered to make excuses about the women who tenanted his houses, one paper mentions that "..Mr. McCarthy, the proprietor of this shop, has no hesitation in avowing his knowledge that all his six houses were tenanted by women of a certain class..." but I suppose he could deny that he knew anything went on in the actual homes in the court if need be..

[Joshua Rogan]

The shout came from the court and seemingly from outside keylers door

Wasn't that where Mary's room was?

[Joshua Rogan]

Also, I am sure there is an article somewhere were one the women mentions about wearing each other's clothes for the purpose,I think of confusing the Police.

Not to mention Ripperologists

[Darryl Kenyon]

There is an article in a recent edition of Ripperologist by Debra where a sketch of Elizabeth was compared to a sketch of Mary. Obviously, the sketches are no means definitive, and they could be a million miles out from what they really looked like, but it is very interesting none the less. Also, I am sure there is an article somewhere were one the women mentions about wearing each other's clothes for the purpose,I think of confusing the Police.

[Joshua Rogan]

A second point of note is that Maurice Lewis description of Kelly identical to the description that Maxwell gave of her .... short , stout and dark other than Maxwell elaborated by giving her age as well of around 23

The description is probably the biggest problem with Lewis' sighting, for me. It contrasts markedly with Liz Prater's impression of Mary as "tall and pretty, and as fair as a lily". And Maxwell actually described her as "a pleasant little woman, rather stout, fair complexion and rather pale". Not a million miles away, but not dark, so not identical. And the"little" might just be a turn of phrase rather than a physical attribute - Mrs Phoenix said she was 5'7".

Incidentally, Mrs Prater had been separated from her husband for 5 years, the same length of time that Lewis claimed to have known Mary. And Mrs Maxwell said she had known Mary about 4 months, the same length of time I think that Mrs Prater had been living in the court. By her own admission, Prater had been drinking heavily the night before, and got up as soon as the pubs opened to get herself another drink.... .could she have had the horrors of drink upon her?

[packers stem]

And still .....
Nobody has asked who 'Julia' was
She was said to have stayed a number of nights with Kelly and according to M Lewis she was seen with Kelly on the Thursday night .
Lewis must surely have been questioned by police over the weekend once his press statements appeared you'd think so did they not look for Julia ?