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Why doubt a soldier murdered Tabram?

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  • Why doubt a soldier murdered Tabram?

    The early morning Tabram was murdered, a patrolling beat officer, PC Thomas Barrett, questioned a grenadier loitering nearby, who replied that he was waiting for a friend.

    Killeen said that a wound on her sternum appeared to have been inflicted by a dagger or bayonet.

    Pearly Poll said Tabram was drinking with two soldiers and herself.

    It seems that’s three corroborating accounts of a military connect.

    PC Barrett
    Dr. Killeen
    Pearly Poll

    How can all three be coincidentally mistaken/lying at the same time?
    Bona fide canonical and then some.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Batman View Post
    The early morning Tabram was murdered, a patrolling beat officer, PC Thomas Barrett, questioned a grenadier loitering nearby, who replied that he was waiting for a friend.

    Killeen said that a wound on her sternum appeared to have been inflicted by a dagger or bayonet.

    Pearly Poll said Tabram was drinking with two soldiers and herself.

    It seems that’s three corroborating accounts of a military connect.

    PC Barrett
    Dr. Killeen
    Pearly Poll

    How can all three be coincidentally mistaken/lying at the same time?
    Hi Batman

    The authorities did seem to take the soldier connection seriously as there were a few line up`s at the barracks and the chasing up of the whereabouts of soldiers who were absent at the time.

    I don`t think the idea has ever been refuted.

    Comment


    • #3
      I doubt it can be ruled out.

      But then again even if we accept she had an engagement with a soldier, there’s nothing to show he WAS the one who killed her.
      G U T

      There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by GUT View Post
        I doubt it can be ruled out.

        But then again even if we accept she had an engagement with a soldier, there’s nothing to show he WAS the one who killed her.
        There is that single large wound description GUT, and the fact that soldiers were permitted to wear short swords and bayonets out on Bank Holidays. We also know soldiers were out in pairs, as this particular witness account corroborates.

        I think the "passion" induced killings are quite different from some of the cold and calculating murders that followed, as was the poor "heat of the moment" decision.. as it appears, that was made in the case of Liz Stride.

        Tabram was initially stabbed by someone ill equipped to inflict a mortal wound with a single stab, or for that matter, a few stabs. That indicates to me that the weapon he was using was the only one at his disposal. If he had a larger weapon and if he just wanted to kill her something more lethal would have been used. That bayonet type wound appears to have been a finale to this event, it was intended to stop the heart. Perhaps a mercy killing in the end.
        Michael Richards

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Batman View Post
          The early morning Tabram was murdered, a patrolling beat officer, PC Thomas Barrett, questioned a grenadier loitering nearby, who replied that he was waiting for a friend.

          Killeen said that a wound on her sternum appeared to have been inflicted by a dagger or bayonet.

          Pearly Poll said Tabram was drinking with two soldiers and herself.

          It seems that’s three corroborating accounts of a military connect.

          PC Barrett
          Dr. Killeen
          Pearly Poll

          How can all three be coincidentally mistaken/lying at the same time?
          Hi Batman
          Totally agree. And there’s no reason that soldier couldn’t also have been the ripper.

          Now that being said any doubt IMHO of it being the soldier of the witnesses is that tab ram was killed much later than the time she was with him. And I haven’t discounted the possibility that after she was with him, he left her alive and well and she was sleeping in the stairwell when the ripper came upon her. After all other witnesses stated that the stairwell was used for sleeping.
          "Is all that we see or seem
          but a dream within a dream?"

          -Edgar Allan Poe


          "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
          quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

          -Frederick G. Abberline

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
            Hi Batman
            Totally agree. And there’s no reason that soldier couldn’t also have been the ripper.Now that being said any doubt IMHO of it being the soldier of the witnesses is that tab ram was killed much later than the time she was with him. And I haven’t discounted the possibility that after she was with him, he left her alive and well and she was sleeping in the stairwell when the ripper came upon her. After all other witnesses stated that the stairwell was used for sleeping.
            I assume you mean other than the fact that she wasn't ripped, she was killed with 2 weapons, her throat wasn't cut at all, and that there are no abdominal mutilations.
            Michael Richards

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
              I assume you mean other than the fact that she wasn't ripped, she was killed with 2 weapons, her throat wasn't cut at all, and that there are no abdominal mutilations.
              And, if her killer was simultaneously the Ripper and one of the soldiers who'd been in the company of his soldier buddy and Pearly Poll, then this distinctly open courtship of a victim was very much at odds with his later MO. (By "later", of course, I mean a matter of four weeks.)
              Kind regards, Sam Flynn

              "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Batman View Post
                The early morning Tabram was murdered, a patrolling beat officer, PC Thomas Barrett, questioned a grenadier loitering nearby, who replied that he was waiting for a friend.

                Killeen said that a wound on her sternum appeared to have been inflicted by a dagger or bayonet.

                Pearly Poll said Tabram was drinking with two soldiers and herself.

                It seems that’s three corroborating accounts of a military connect.

                PC Barrett
                Dr. Killeen
                Pearly Poll

                How can all three be coincidentally mistaken/lying at the same time?
                I don´t want to be a partycrasher, Batman, but you may need to let go of one of the three people you listed. I don´t think Dr Killeen ever said anything about a bayonet. He spoke of a "long, strong instrument" such as a dagger.

                I may be misremembering, of course, but I´m happy to stand corrected in that case.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                  I assume you mean other than the fact that she wasn't ripped, she was killed with 2 weapons, her throat wasn't cut at all, and that there are no abdominal mutilations.
                  well, yes, then theres that. lol.

                  but as with most serial killers, theres escalation, and change in MO as they perfect their technique.

                  conversely theres many similarities that's tips it being the ripper for me:

                  same victomology
                  same time frame
                  same location
                  same time of day-night
                  knife used
                  no witness heard anything
                  no overt sign of struggle
                  knife wounds to privates
                  unsolved
                  found with skirt lifted (clincher for me)
                  some police included her in the series
                  "Is all that we see or seem
                  but a dream within a dream?"

                  -Edgar Allan Poe


                  "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                  quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                  -Frederick G. Abberline

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                    And, if her killer was simultaneously the Ripper and one of the soldiers who'd been in the company of his soldier buddy and Pearly Poll, then this distinctly open courtship of a victim was very much at odds with his later MO. (By "later", of course, I mean a matter of four weeks.)
                    yup. an obvious difference.

                    however, since its possibly the first kill (if it was the ripper) then the changes later could be perfecting his MO. also theirs the possibility it could have been a trigger kill-as in he really hadn't set out to kill that night.


                    we also need to keep in mind that he may have spent considerable time with Stride ala peaked cap man. and that he and Kelly might have known each other and or if the ripper was blotchy they obviously hung out for a while in public before the kill.
                    "Is all that we see or seem
                    but a dream within a dream?"

                    -Edgar Allan Poe


                    "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                    quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                    -Frederick G. Abberline

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                      yup. an obvious difference.

                      however, since its possibly the first kill (if it was the ripper) then the changes later could be perfecting his MO. also theirs the possibility it could have been a trigger kill-as in he really hadn't set out to kill that night.


                      we also need to keep in mind that he may have spent considerable time with Stride ala peaked cap man. and that he and Kelly might have known each other and or if the ripper was blotchy they obviously hung out for a while in public before the kill.
                      I agree, AN

                      .. and someone may have been buying Eddowes drinks that Sat afternoon.
                      Nichols seemed to know where she could get her lodging money and McKenzie was in a rush somewhere when she was last seen alive

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                        we also need to keep in mind that he may have spent considerable time with Stride ala peaked cap man. and that he and Kelly might have known each other and or if the ripper was blotchy they obviously hung out for a while in public before the kill.
                        But not in the direct and intimate company of two others, at least not in the case of Stride. As to Blotchy we don't know, but nobody else came forward to witness their assignation, either as drinking partners or unconnected observers.
                        Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                        "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                          But not in the direct and intimate company of two others, at least not in the case of Stride. As to Blotchy we don't know, but nobody else came forward to witness their assignation, either as drinking partners or unconnected observers.
                          Hi Gareth

                          We really have no idea if the pair of soldiers seen at 2am were the same ones that were with Poll and Martha earlier.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Jon Guy View Post
                            Hi Gareth

                            We really have no idea if the pair of soldiers seen at 2am were the same ones that were with Poll and Martha earlier.
                            or even if the soldiers with Poll and Martha included Marthas killer.
                            "Is all that we see or seem
                            but a dream within a dream?"

                            -Edgar Allan Poe


                            "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                            quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                            -Frederick G. Abberline

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                              But not in the direct and intimate company of two others, at least not in the case of Stride. As to Blotchy we don't know, but nobody else came forward to witness their assignation, either as drinking partners or unconnected observers.
                              Hi Sam
                              yes but you originally said:

                              open courtship of a victim
                              which is what I responded to, and showed.

                              but please continue with your usual changing of goal posts and resorting to smaller and smaller differences until we are arguing definitions, semantics and whos English is better.
                              Last edited by Abby Normal; 11-02-2017, 07:10 AM.
                              "Is all that we see or seem
                              but a dream within a dream?"

                              -Edgar Allan Poe


                              "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                              quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                              -Frederick G. Abberline

                              Comment

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