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The Bucks Row Project part 2

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  • #31
    Perhaps if you get around to doing all the murders in the same way you could get them together in a collection?

    Great work though. You've earned a pint or three in the 'Bells.' Maybe treat yourself to a double Laphroaig
    Regards

    Herlock






    "There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact!"

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    • #32
      >>According to Mizen only one Carman spoke to him<<

      Ah! careful here.

      He didn't say only one carman spoke to him, he simply talked about one carman, there's a difference. In the begining he didn't even acknowledge Paul's existence.

      After Mizen had given his evidence about the encounter, Baxter had to ask him if there was another carman with Cross.

      Mizen do not explicitly say Paul did not speak, he simply did not mention Paul at all. It is entirely possible Paul also spoke to Mizen.

      Of course, that might also mean Paul didn't speak, but since both Paul and Cross say he did, we have to consider it a likely option.
      Last edited by drstrange169; 08-10-2017, 04:37 PM.
      dustymiller
      aka drstrange


      "Whenever an expert says something that bolsters the Lechmere theory, it is not my task to disprove him ..."
      Fisherman

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      • #33
        >The practice used to be that when a number of police officers were involved in the same incident they would also sit down together and write up their reports to ensure they were all singing from the same song sheet.<<

        Sounds plausible, but, just not in this case, as Mizen was from a different division.
        dustymiller
        aka drstrange


        "Whenever an expert says something that bolsters the Lechmere theory, it is not my task to disprove him ..."
        Fisherman

        Comment


        • #34
          As Mizen was away from his beat for a lengthy time,he would have had to report the incident and explain to his superiors before leaving for home that morning.Therefor the police must have had a knowledge of Cross and Paul meeting with Mizen,at an early time, and have asked for particulars of them. Wonder how they reacted when Mizen said there wasn't anything,as he hadn't asked. Any idea Steve,how long Mizen was away from his beat?

          Comment


          • #35
            Roughly 8 minutes to fetch the ambulance, unspecified time at Bethnal Green police station explaining why he was there organising "J" division cops to acompany him back and getting permission to take the ambulance. Roughly 8 minutes getting back. Waiting for the OK to put the body on the ambulance and then taking the body to the mortuary which was on his beat.

            Very minimum 30 minutes, probably longer.
            Last edited by drstrange169; 08-10-2017, 07:42 PM.
            dustymiller
            aka drstrange


            "Whenever an expert says something that bolsters the Lechmere theory, it is not my task to disprove him ..."
            Fisherman

            Comment


            • #36
              Whoops, just remembered, Spratling arrived at Buck's Row about 4:30 and the body had gone.

              So that put a maximum of under 3/4 of an hour before Mizen was back on home territory.
              Last edited by drstrange169; 08-10-2017, 07:44 PM.
              dustymiller
              aka drstrange


              "Whenever an expert says something that bolsters the Lechmere theory, it is not my task to disprove him ..."
              Fisherman

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by drstrange169 View Post
                >The practice used to be that when a number of police officers were involved in the same incident they would also sit down together and write up their reports to ensure they were all singing from the same song sheet.<<

                Sounds plausible, but, just not in this case, as Mizen was from a different division.
                This also highlights another inquest example of clarification questions needing to be asked of witnesses but they were not. There are numerous similar examples throughout all of the different inquests.

                www.trevormarriott.co.uk

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                • #38
                  >>... inquest example of clarification questions needing to be asked of witnesses but they were not.<<

                  The problem for us, is that they may have been asked and simply not reported.

                  I've been comparing newspaper reports with Old Bailey transcripts recently and the newspapers leave a lot to be desired when it comes to coverage.
                  dustymiller
                  aka drstrange


                  "Whenever an expert says something that bolsters the Lechmere theory, it is not my task to disprove him ..."
                  Fisherman

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by drstrange169 View Post
                    >>... inquest example of clarification questions needing to be asked of witnesses but they were not.<<

                    The problem for us, is that they may have been asked and simply not reported.

                    I've been comparing newspaper reports with Old Bailey transcripts recently and the newspapers leave a lot to be desired when it comes to coverage.
                    True.

                    I'd also add that a lot of questions that "should be asked" aren't.
                    G U T

                    There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      According to Mizen only one Carman spoke to him

                      QUOTE=drstrange169;424968:

                      Ah! careful here.

                      He didn't say only one carman spoke to him, he simply talked about one carman, there's a difference. In the begining he didn't even acknowledge Paul's existence.

                      After Mizen had given his evidence about the encounter, Baxter had to ask him if there was another carman with Cross.

                      Mizen do not explicitly say Paul did not speak, he simply did not mention Paul at all. It is entirely possible Paul also spoke to Mizen.

                      Of course, that might also mean Paul didn't speak, but since both Paul and Cross say he did, we have to consider it a likely option.
                      And also the sources indicate that Paul was waiting for Cross while he was speaking to Mizen since Cross is described to have passed in company with another man, hypothetically Paul, and leaving with him after having spoken to Mizen.

                      This can explain the tendency Steve has found in the earliest sources where Paul is described as having talked to the police himself.

                      Then his motive was to make up for standing aside and waiting for Cross.

                      Pierre

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by drstrange169 View Post
                        >>According to Mizen only one Carman spoke to him<<

                        Ah! careful here.

                        He didn't say only one carman spoke to him, he simply talked about one carman, there's a difference. In the begining he didn't even acknowledge Paul's existence.

                        After Mizen had given his evidence about the encounter, Baxter had to ask him if there was another carman with Cross.

                        Mizen do not explicitly say Paul did not speak, he simply did not mention Paul at all. It is entirely possible Paul also spoke to Mizen.

                        Of course, that might also mean Paul didn't speak, but since both Paul and Cross say he did, we have to consider it a likely option.
                        Hi Dusty being yes perhaps implied would have been better.
                        I am of the opinion that he probably said the odd word as per Lechmere's testimony.

                        Steve

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by drstrange169 View Post
                          >The practice used to be that when a number of police officers were involved in the same incident they would also sit down together and write up their reports to ensure they were all singing from the same song sheet.<<

                          Sounds plausible, but, just not in this case, as Mizen was from a different division.
                          Still it seems clear that Neil was not aware on Saturday or probably on Sunday of what Mizen would say.


                          Steve

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by harry View Post
                            As Mizen was away from his beat for a lengthy time,he would have had to report the incident and explain to his superiors before leaving for home that morning.Therefor the police must have had a knowledge of Cross and Paul meeting with Mizen,at an early time, and have asked for particulars of them. Wonder how they reacted when Mizen said there wasn't anything,as he hadn't asked. Any idea Steve,how long Mizen was away from his beat?
                            First point Harry, did he need to mention Paul and Neil at all. Neil was clearly claiming he had summoned a passing officer, maybe that was enough to explain his absence.

                            How long ? At least 40 minutes probably more. He went to get ambulance and then helped load it. To be honest I have not calculated but can check over next few days.

                            Steve.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Pierre View Post
                              QUOTE=drstrange169;424968:



                              And also the sources indicate that Paul was waiting for Cross while he was speaking to Mizen since Cross is described to have passed in company with another man, hypothetically Paul, and leaving with him after having spoken to Mizen.

                              This can explain the tendency Steve has found in the earliest sources where Paul is described as having talked to the police himself.

                              Then his motive was to make up for standing aside and waiting for Cross.

                              Pierre
                              Pierre the view I am looking at is that he stayed mainly out of the conversation as such letting Lechmere do most of the talking but may have chipped in with comments as Lechmere describes. Let's call him a passive part of the meeting, there, listening and making comments but not taking a full part. Possibly becausebof a dislike of the police.

                              Steve

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by drstrange169 View Post
                                Whoops, just remembered, Spratling arrived at Buck's Row about 4:30 and the body had gone.

                                So that put a maximum of under 3/4 of an hour before Mizen was back on home territory.
                                Dusty


                                Yes around 45 seems reasonable. Of course it depends on how long he was at the mortuary before resuming duty so maybe 50 at absolute max.

                                Steve

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