Robert Paul Time Issues

[David Orsam]

Not involved in the investigation? Really?

That's right. He wasn't appointed to take charge of the Ripper enquiry until 15 September by which time the police investigation into the Nichols murder, conducted by Inspector Abberline, was effectively complete.

[David Orsam]

Yes, isnīt it? I have a sneaking feeling it goes way back to your definition of "kneeling" and your statement that "with" involves being within physical reach.

As I've said to you many times Fisherman, context is very important with the English language because words can have different meanings in different contexts. When you say that someone is "found with a dead body", the word "with" takes on a certain, accusative, meaning that it might not have in other contexts. As for "kneeling", I was specifically talking about how a person kneels in the street and I well recall you saying you had done a google images search of the word "kneel" which you claimed supported your definition without mentioning the number of images which showed people kneeling in exactly the same way I had defined it! It was, I thought, a good example of your dedication to the truth.

[Fisherman]

But not Paul, Cross, Mizen, Neil, Thain...

And? What eartshattering conclusions do you draw from this fact?

[Fisherman]

Except that it doesn't. I even created a thread which discussed this very point, although you did not contribute:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=8575

And no-one said that "Lechmere found the body at 3.40". Abberline's report used the phrase "about 3.40" and it's important that we try to keep this in mind rather than pretending that anyone could nail down timings to the minute.

It is not a question of being able to nail down timings to the minute, David - it is a question of how the police would have regarded it as very important to get as close as they could to the actual timings. That is why it is of relevance that Swanson made the change - because the police had reached the stnce that 3.45 was reasonably and probably closer to the truth than 3.40. Whether it was 3.41 or 3.44 is not very important in this context - what is important is that the final weighing - as far as we can tell - prioritized 3.45 over 3.40.

[Fisherman]

David Orsam: No, it's the say of an officer who was not involved in the investigation into the murder he was writing about.

Not involved in the investigation? Really?

And yes I am saying that Swanson was a little bit sloppy.

But sadly, you will find it impossible to prove in the matter we are talking about.

Are you saying that Abberline was not logical?

Are YOU saying that Swanson was any less logical than Abberline? I am saying that Abberlines report preceded Swansons by a month. And I am saying that as work proceeds, the police will get a fuller and clearer picture of the events, not a less full and more blurred one. And they will change their bids accordingly.
If Abberlines report had been the last one, it would have stood the better chance to be the correct one. But it isnīt.

Once again, despite the opportunity to do so, you have still not acknowledged the inaccurate timings (compared to the evidence) provided by Swanson in his report on the Chapman murder!

No, I havenīt, have I? Could that perhaps be because I do not think that it can be extrapolated to go for the Nichols murder, no matter if it true or not? Yes, it could.
If I had tried such a ploy, I would have been pooh-poohed off the boards. Itīs rather reckless, and should not be used.
Swanson had access to the earlier report. He was aware what the PC:s said about the timings. Unless there was a practical reason to overturn Abberlines report in this respect, it would not have been done. And sloppiness would be the last reason for doing it.

[Fisherman]

No, Fisherman, look at the definition of the word in Webster's Dictionary:

"to restate in support or agreement" his successor echoed his opinion

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/echo

You can't restate in support or agreement something you haven't heard or are not aware of.

And I don't know why you felt the need to change the context to "person A" and "person B". We were talking about an official police report by a Chief Inspector to the Home Office. The author of that report cannot properly or correctly be said to have echoed what was said in a newspaper article six weeks earlier that he may not ever have read.

It's funny how on the one hand you protest to me about your lack of knowledge of English yet persist in arguing about the English language with me!

Yes, isnīt it? I have a sneaking feeling it goes way back to your definition of "kneeling" and your statement that "with" involves being within physical reach.

I wonīt take the trouble to publish practical examples of where people have "echoed" things they have not heard being said. It would be wasting time, so I just rely on how people will know perfectly well what I am talking about.

I feel certain that when I say that you are being consciously obnoxious, I am echoing numerous voices from your past, by the way.

[David Orsam]

A point of overall interest with the clock chiming is how we have so many witnesses speaking of how they heard the clock sounding, and therefore knew what the time was; Cadosh, Long, Holland, Davis...

But not Paul, Cross, Mizen, Neil, Thain...

[David Orsam]

As far as I can see, Swanson realized that if Lechmere found the body at 3.40, that timing seems to tally very poorly with the time it took for Thain to fetch Llewellyn. Itīs straightforward.

Except that it doesn't. I even created a thread which discussed this very point, although you did not contribute:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=8575

And no-one said that "Lechmere found the body at 3.40". Abberline's report used the phrase "about 3.40" and it's important that we try to keep this in mind rather than pretending that anyone could nail down timings to the minute.

[David Orsam]

It is the final say of the police, chronologically speaking. So either we accept that Swanson was sloppy, could not care less - or worded the stance of the police. Since 3.45 is the more logical time (and yes, we are speaking about my logic, not yours), I happen to believe that the latter applies.

No, it's the say of an officer who was not involved in the investigation into the murder he was writing about. And yes I am saying that Swanson was a little bit sloppy. Are you saying that Abberline was not logical? Once again, despite the opportunity to do so, you have still not acknowledged the inaccurate timings (compared to the evidence) provided by Swanson in his report on the Chapman murder!

[David Orsam]

Donīt be silly. If a person A goes into a room and says "David Orsam is wrong again", and is followed by a person B who goes into the same room and says "David Orsam is wrong again", then person B WILL be echoing what person A said, regardless if he knows what person A said or not.

No, Fisherman, look at the definition of the word in Webster's Dictionary:

"to restate in support or agreement" his successor echoed his opinion

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/echo

You can't restate in support or agreement something you haven't heard or are not aware of.

And I don't know why you felt the need to change the context to "person A" and "person B". We were talking about an official police report by a Chief Inspector to the Home Office. The author of that report cannot properly or correctly be said to have echoed what was said in a newspaper article six weeks earlier that he may not ever have read.

It's funny how on the one hand you protest to me about your lack of knowledge of English yet persist in arguing about the English language with me!

[Jon Guy]

...which makes you think that...?

The Ripper also headed in that direction after Mitre Square.

[Fisherman]

A point of overall interest with the clock chiming is how we have so many witnesses speaking of how they heard the clock sounding, and therefore knew what the time was; Cadosh, Long, Holland, Davis...

It really goes to show how the public clocks were the common manīs timekeepers. Today, we hear the clocks strike too - but how many of us take notice of the time? To me, it is just an attractive city sound, nothing much else - I have my wrist watch and my mobile to consult, and I donīt use the public clocks for timekeeping at all.
It was very different back then.

[Fisherman]

Alice McKenzie was last seen alive heading, in a hurry, to the same sort of area that Nichols was heading to.

...which makes you think that...?

[Jon Guy]

I believe David misgivings are primarily concerned with the strokes of the quarter hours - that is when the citizens of Whitechapel would have found the noise unbearable, not the half hour- and full hour strokes...

Anyway, I believe there were clocks where smaller bells rung out the quarter hours. Big Ben was - and is - such a clock, but I believe it may have been the same in at least some other clocktowers too.

In another vein, it is interesting that there was still a full one and a quarter hours before Nichols was found at the stage when Holland and she spoke together. It opens up for the possibility that the person who originally accompanied her into Bucks Row may not have been her killer - there is ample time for her to have done business with another client first, and then perhaps to have stayed behind in Bucks Row, only to be found there by the killer.
Or she did the business and returned to Whitechapel Road, where she was picked up by the killer.
Or she didnīt find any business until the Ripper came along.
Or she ...

Itīs annoying.

Alice McKenzie was last seen alive heading, in a hurry, to the same sort of area that Nichols was heading to.

[Fisherman]

According to Emily Holland, the last person to see Polly alive;

"Witness: I had only just met her, and we were talking for about seven or eight minutes. While we were talking the clock at Whitechapel Church struck half-past two."

I believe David misgivings are primarily concerned with the strokes of the quarter hours - that is when the citizens of Whitechapel would have found the noise unbearable, not the half hour- and full hour strokes...

Anyway, I believe there were clocks where smaller bells rung out the quarter hours. Big Ben was - and is - such a clock, but I believe it may have been the same in at least some other clocktowers too.

In another vein, it is interesting that there was still a full one and a quarter hours before Nichols was found at the stage when Holland and she spoke together. It opens up for the possibility that the person who originally accompanied her into Bucks Row may not have been her killer - there is ample time for her to have done business with another client first, and then perhaps to have stayed behind in Bucks Row, only to be found there by the killer.
Or she did the business and returned to Whitechapel Road, where she was picked up by the killer.
Or she didnīt find any business until the Ripper came along.
Or she ...

Itīs annoying.