Robert Paul Time Issues

[Geddy2112]

For the purpose of the argument (waking up or wandering the streets all night), absolute precision in time in the Nichol's/Chapman is not necessary here: 3:40 am does not possibly transform into 1:30 am for the Polly Nichol's murder.

Agreed.

If we choose the 5:30 am time that you prefer for Annie Chapman, Lech could have parked his wagon at Spitafields, and while the goods were offloaded there, he could have easily wandered off for a bit. There was a discussion here about boys who accompanied carmen on routes awhile back. Serial killers have been known to kill on the job and Spitafields was a very short walk to the murder site.

I'm sorry but to suggest Cross parked up his cart and nipped into the back of Hanbury Street for a spot of murder is absolutely absurd. It's the grasping of the shortest possible straw by Team Lechmere. He would have to have found Annie, she was not waiting round the back for him to mutilate her. He would have gone in clean and come out covered in blood. What would his vanguard say even if he did have one, or his next customer? Jack had already murdered just a week previous so folk would have been asking questions and noting anything suspicious like a carman covered in blood carrying some organs etc about.

As for the boldened part, you well know that the double event occurred early Sunday morning. What did I write down about workers having off days? The double event strengthens the argument that JtR most probably was a worker who had Sunday morning to sleep in ... hence, these happened around midnight, as opposed to the previous two murders.

But as commonly posted here Cross would have had to stop up 23 hours or get up early by 3 hours on his only day off to perform the double event, again highly unlikely.

And btw, who the hell is Cross? Nobody who went around by the name of Cross, has any involvement in the Ripper case.

Are you actually being serious here? A clue, he might have been involved in the discovery of Polly Nichols body in Bucks Row about 3:40am on 31st Aug 1888.

[Herlock Sholmes]

The fabricating of evidence isn’t an exercise it’s a fact. It was a cynical and deliberate attempt to fool James Scobie into stating that Cross had a case to answer. Remove the ‘gap’ and there is no case to answer. This is why it’s so important not to manipulate evidence. The case for this is proven:

In The Missing Evidence, Christer said this as he and Andy Griffiths were about to set out to walk Cross’s route from Doveton Street to Durward Street:

“He said at the inquest that he left at 3.30. Some reports say 3.20 but the more common reports say 3.30.”

So it can’t be clearer can it. Christer is saying that the majority of newspaper reports (which he’d obviously must have checked during his research) said that Charles Cross left his home at 3.30 - not ‘about 3.30’ not ‘around 3.30’ not ‘approximately 3.30’ but exactly 3.30.

Later, here on Casebook he conceded that:

“We must however accept that since the absolute bulk of the papers spoke of ”around 3.30”, that is by far the likeliest wording to have been given.”

The word ‘about’ was also omitted from his book ‘Cutting Point.’ In another part of the book he does use the word ‘about’ in relation to the time but vitally not in the part where he is trying to invent a gap to make Cross appear suspicious.

I asked Christer, on here, how is it possible that after seeing all of the Press reports and finding out (as he admits above) that Cross said ‘around 3.30’ that he went on to omit the word ‘around’ from both documentary and book? His response:

“It has always been obvious, and it was not intentionally omitted in my book. I have already explained a large number of times that there was no intention to mislead, and that I have the ”around” in a quotation from a paper plus that I urge people not to take timings as gospel. I also never say that SINCE he left at 3.30, he MUST have …, I say that IF he left at 3.30 and so on. So the only misleading there is, is if you call it an intentional effort to deceive.”

No honest person could deny the evasiveness of the above. No answer to how he managed leave the word out and we know why. Because it’s impossible that he could have omitted this accidentally….twice. No one can be so gullible as to accept that ‘explanation.’ On his use of the word ‘if’ he is being obviously deceptive. If someone says “If Fred left at 2.00 and arrived at 3.00…” no one can doubt that the person is saying that the journey took an hour. Not the first time he’s tried to mangle the language to make a point. And in Christer’s case of course he has stressed in the documentary that “He said at the inquest that he left at 3.30.“

So this was a deliberate effort to have Cross leave his house at exactly 3.30. He then tries to stretch the time that Paul met up with Cross to a minute or so before 3.45. Clearly this is done to ‘create’ a mysterious gap. Presented with this evidence Scobie can’t be blamed for thinking it suspicious behaviour when it was no such thing. If he’d have known the truth via an accurate representation of the evidence then he would have been aware that there is zero evidence of a mysterious gap. Remove that and the ‘case’ against Cross is an empty sack. He has no case to answer. Not a single reason to suspect him of anything.

A man on his way to work and 20 minutes before clocking on stops off to murder a woman (the first serial killer in history that we can name who has done that) At a spot where he would have passed at the same time 6 days a week (I’d imagine that he’d be the first serial killer to have done that) He then hears a stranger approach and waits for him to show up for a chat while he stands there with a bloodied knife in his pocket (the first time in history that the person who discovered a serial killers victim turned out to have been the killer himself) How unique can this man be? They then go together to speak to a police officer. Cross then shows up at the inquest. How can anyone find that believable. And yet what apparently is unbelievable is that the killer might have - lived nearby, been a known knife carrier, a drunkard, a criminal, knew prostitutes, was violent toward women, left London just after the Kelly murder, murdered and mutilated his wife, was found to have 2 pieces of Jack the Ripper-related grafitto in his flat and had the Police travel up to question him about the ripper murders. How can Bury be dismissed and the non-suspect Cross get support?

Bizarre.

[Newbie]

As for the 'fabricating evidence', this is a tiresome excercise.

Remember, it was you who said that the stated departure time of around 3:30 am was proof that Lechmere was innocent ..... because then he would arrive at the body at around 3:38 am matching the timing of PC Neil just missing him (and later Mizen); but this is dramatically overstating things.

I merely rebutted this contention by saying that if Lech was the murderer (i'll stop using 'if' from now on, because it confuses people), he would have used a departure time that agrees with PC Neil's, not arriving at the murder site too soon or too late. Any murderer with half-a-wit would have chosen that time.

You do realize that the 3:30 am departure time is not evidence of Lechmere actually leaving at that time? He could have left at any time earlier
and only had to end up by the body at around 3:38 am.

Its factual only in respect to having testified to that time, and we can use it to still verify that his story checks out, or not ... only Lechmere's wife (or perhaps a neighbor) would know the actual departure time ... Mrs. Lechmere most likely considering it her duty to get up with her husband and help in the preparation for his departure .... the old housefrau of ancient lore.

And so i'm interested in the pacing of both Paul and Lech on their way to work, considering that most people set a pace and stick with it on a walk from point A to B, varying little from it during the course of the walk. One assumes that Lechmere and Paul did not have to stop for traffic.

[Newbie]

How did Cross manage to read the testimony of PC Neil which was in the paper after he had appeared at the inquest? How do you know Cross is not stupid? I suspect being a murderer carrying a bloody knife and tapping a passer-by on the should with a bloody hand instead of running away to be rather stupid do you not think, then to go and find the first policeman he could... yes not stupid at all.. mmmmm.

'He then very well could...' - so you are guessing and fabricating evidence then.


Well lets forget about your times yes because there is a huge Sainsburys in the way now. Have you read Inside Bucks Row? Have you used the old maps to plot the route? Much more accurate than trying to do it in person with today's route changes, traffic and other factors in place.

By assumption .... the initial inquest was on Saturday afternoon, and Lechmere would have read it in a Saturday evening or Sunday morning paper.

On a quick check, the Echo reported on the inquest proceedings in what appears to be their Saturday evening edition:

https://www.casebook.org/press_reports/echo/18880901.html

Mr. Wynne E. Baxter opened an inquiry this afternoon at the Working Lads' Institute, Whitechapel-road ....
It goes on to describe details about the father's testimony, but fails to include that of PC Neil's; however, since PC Neil 'discovered' the body,
he was a most important of witnesses, and one can easily imagine other papers providing that testimony for the public, in a timely fashion.
I just do not have time to look for it right now .... and of course, if I find one such newspaper, there is no guarantee Lech actually read it.
On the other hand, there were many newspapers readily available to him of which we have no knowledge.

Forget about my times, and focus on yours? Timing on route length and pacing of the participants is important to me.

I used a document posted by Ed Stowe on Lechmere's route to work: and then I used Google maps to match it in a satisfactory fashion, quite easily. Stowe's map has the route end on the entrance to Broad Street - currently 'sun street passage', and where along Broad Street Lechmere turned in to get to his station, one cannot say. However, up to the corner of Liverpool street and Broad street, its fairly easy.

I came up with 1.72 miles from the middle of sun street passage to 22 Doveton street and will post details later.
As I told you before, I believe the 1.55 miles is well off, and tweeks the necessary pace of walk well lower than what was actual.
There of course is no need to synchronize times for this little exercise, only using Lechmere's stated time of departure.

[Newbie]

To be fair we do not know when Nichols or Chapman were murdered. Nichols was found about 3:40am but that is as good as it gets. If Annie was killed at 5:30am it is highly unlikely that Cross was involved and also to back up your theory of not a night wanderer then Cross could not have committed the double event.

For the purpose of the argument (waking up or wandering the streets all night), absolute precision in time in the Nichol's/Chapman is not necessary here: 3:40 am does not possibly transform into 1:30 am for the Polly Nichol's murder.

If we choose the 5:30 am time that you prefer for Annie Chapman, Lech could have parked his wagon at Spitafields, and while the goods were offloaded there, he could have easily wandered off for a bit. There was a discussion here about boys who accompanied carmen on routes awhile back. Serial killers have been known to kill on the job and Spitafields was a very short walk to the murder site.

As for the boldened part, you well know that the double event occurred early Sunday morning. What did I write down about workers having off days? The double event strengthens the argument that JtR most probably was a worker who had Sunday morning to sleep in ... hence, these happened around midnight, as opposed to the previous two murders.

And btw, who the hell is Cross? Nobody who went around by the name of Cross, has any involvement in the Ripper case.

[Geddy2112]

Or, Lechmere read the inquest testimony of Neil about discovering the body at 3:45 am ... no? He then very well could have fashioned his departure time to match it. Leave home around 3:30 am, take about 8 minutes to get to the body, mess around with Paul by the body for 1-2 minutes, head on out and just miss PC Neil.
Lechmere is not stupid.

How did Cross manage to read the testimony of PC Neil which was in the paper after he had appeared at the inquest? How do you know Cross is not stupid? I suspect being a murderer carrying a bloody knife and tapping a passer-by on the should with a bloody hand instead of running away to be rather stupid do you not think, then to go and find the first policeman he could... yes not stupid at all.. mmmmm.

'He then very well could...' - so you are guessing and fabricating evidence then.

I'm glad you mentioned speed. I spent about a week last summer trying to determine the distance from 22 Doveton to Broad street ... couldn't find it anywhere here. I came up with 1.8 miles using the more southern route heading along old Montague using Google maps and fetching out the old route ... I was very satisfied with it. 1.5 miles is well off in my opinion. Worth an new thread and I'd be happy to take screen shots. So, from my perspective, leaving home at 3:30 am would force Lech to haul ass to get to Pickford's on time: 1.8 miles/ 30 minutes is 3.6 mph. Anyone can go to a health fitness center and set the treadmill for 3.6 mph: its a good workout .... not impossible of course. Most people would habitually leave around 3:25 pm, but that would have you arrive at the body at around 3:33 am ... so forget about that time.

Well lets forget about your times yes because there is a huge Sainsburys in the way now. Have you read Inside Bucks Row? Have you used the old maps to plot the route? Much more accurate than trying to do it in person with today's route changes, traffic and other factors in place.

[Geddy2112]

Nichols was murdered at 3:40 am and Chapman at lets say 5:30 am fits with someone who had woke up in the morning and went out to eventually kill. Those murders were not committed by someone who hung out all night, with really nothing to do but wander and be seen.
Why wait until 5:30 am? And if you are idle, and can commit the murders whenever you want, why get up at 3 am to do it?

To be fair we do not know when Nichols or Chapman were murdered. Nichols was found about 3:40am but that is as good as it gets. If Annie was killed at 5:30am it is highly unlikely that Cross was involved and also to back up your theory of not a night wanderer then Cross could not have committed the double event.

[Newbie]

If Cross (and Paul technically) discovered the body at 3:40am then Cross could not have been the killer unless he lied under oath and since his timings match the other players then it's fairly certain he did not. He had a golden opportunity to give himself a solid alibi if he had read Paul's Remarkable Statement and pushed his timings closer to 3:45am but he did not, this suggests innocence.



The two shortest routes from Doveton Street to Broad Street are both close to 30 mins at a steady 3.1mph. Of course we do not know which route he used, how fast he walked or exactly what time he left home any morning but his 'about 3:30am' fits nicely and could easily make work in time for 4am.



Of course it's far fetched. He needs it to invent the time gap, which basic maths proves did not exist. Even a page back here Holmgren added in a minute for the hell of it.



It does likewise but then you have to really disregard Cross as the killer unless you fabricate evidence. The other thing I've noticed from this thread is the 'kill' time. For me it's always been the 'cutting' that is timed, especially in the [still] Missing Evidence. It's quoted as a couple of minutes to do the cutting but what they always seem to fail to mention is the time it would have taken to kill Polly via manual strangulation. Yes she could have been rendered unconscious in a matter of seconds but her heart would still have been pumping, to 'kill' her and effectively stop the heart (which the theory needs for lack of blood) it would have taken at least 5 minutes. That is 5 minutes Cross certainly did not have and has never been factored into the 'time gap.'

Or, Lechmere read the inquest testimony of Neil about discovering the body at 3:45 am ... no? He then very well could have fashioned his departure time to match it. Leave home around 3:30 am, take about 8 minutes to get to the body, mess around with Paul by the body for 1-2 minutes, head on out and just miss PC Neil.
Lechmere is not stupid.

I'm glad you mentioned speed. I spent about a week last summer trying to determine the distance from 22 Doveton to Broad street ... couldn't find it anywhere here. I came up with 1.8 miles using the more southern route heading along old Montague using Google maps and fetching out the old route ... I was very satisfied with it. 1.5 miles is well off in my oppinion. Worth an new thread and I'd be happy to take screen shots. So, from my perspective, leaving home at 3:30 am would force Lech to haul ass to get to Pickford's on time: 1.8 miles/ 30 minutes is 3.6 mph. Anyone can go to a health fitness center and set the treadmill for 3.6 mph: its a good workout .... not impossible of course. Most people would habitually leave around 3:25 pm, but that would have you arrive at the body at around 3:33 am ... so forget about that time.

A speed of 4 mph is the low end of jogging. Choose Paul's time from the article and arrive at 3:44 am you say? That would have Lech leaving home at 3:36 am and he would basically have to sprint to work, even using the 1.55 mile estimate. No, the around 3:30 am departure time was perfect.

But, the whole issue depends on the distance to Broad street station, which is well worth the effort to investigate thoroughly by not just me, but others.

[Newbie]

That theory meshes poorly with several times of death.

Martha Tabram was killed between 1:40am and 3:30am.
Annie Chapman was killed 5:30am and 6am.
Elizabeth Stride was killed between 12:45am and 1am.
Catherine Eddowes was killed between 1:30am and 1:45am.
Alice McKenie was killed between 12:30am and 12:50am.

There is no routine between the times of death, which makes it rather unlikely the Ripper had a regular job. If he did, it was a job that had him away and on the streets from midnight to 6am.

Nichols was murdered at 3:40 am and Chapman at lets say 5:30 am fits with someone who had woke up in the morning and went out to eventually kill. Those murders were not committed by someone who hung out all night, with really nothing to do but wander and be seen.
Why wait until 5:30 am?

Catherine Eddowes and Elizabeth Stride were killed early Sunday morning ..... it being committed near midnight fits with someone who had the following day off, and could stay out past midnight. it is these that strongly reinforces my notion.

If you are idle, and can commit the murders whenever you want, why get up at 3 am to do it?

Mary Kelly was murderd on the morning of the Lord mayor's day procession of James Whitehead .... anywhere from 1:30 am to 4 am.
Most probably someone hanging out late, feeding off of the electricity of that idiotic event .... again, a workman out on the pretext of celebrating and carousing with mates could accomodate any one of these times.

If Martha Tabram was killed at 1:40 am ... then one would expect a night reveler; if 3:30 am, one would favor a person who just woke up.

Alice Mckenie was a Riper murder? There are two things of clear distinction from the others:

#1.During each of the previous murders, the moonlight was in a very low phase of the cycle: it was a new moon for Martha Tabram's murder. With Mary Kelly, it was 45 %, but that murder happened in doors. With Alice Mckenie, it was a much brighter night. The moon rise was anywhere between 9pm and midnight.

#2. It happened on Wednesday morning

If Alice Mckenie was a Ripper victim, than that would be the exception to a otherwise consistent rule implying that the Ripper was someone with a morning routine, with Sunday or holidays off.

[Newbie]

That theory meshes poorly with several times of death.

Martha Tabram was killed between 1:40am and 3:30am.
Annie Chapman was killed 5:30am and 6am.
Elizabeth Stride was killed between 12:45am and 1am.
Catherine Eddowes was killed between 1:30am and 1:45am.
Alice McKenie was killed between 12:30am and 12:50am.

There is no routine between the times of death, which makes it rather unlikely the Ripper had a regular job. If he did, it was a job that had him away and on the streets from midnight to 6am.

Nichols was murdered at 3:40 am and Chapman at lets say 5:30 am fits with someone who had woke up in the morning and went out to eventually kill. Those murders were not committed by someone who hung out all night, with really nothing to do but wander and be seen.
Why wait until 5:30 am? And if you are idle, and can commit the murders whenever you want, why get up at 3 am to do it?

Catherine Eddowes and Elizabeth Stride were killed early Sunday morning ..... it being committed near midnight fits with someone who had the following day off, and could stay out past midnight. it is this pair of murders that strongly reinforces my notion.


Mary Kelly was murderd on the morning of the Lord mayor's day procession of James Whitehead .... anywhere from 1:30 am to 4 am.
Most probably someone hanging out late, feeding off of the electricity of that idiotic event .... again, a workman out on the pretext of celebrating and carousing with mates could accomodate any one of these times.

If Martha Tabram was killed at 1:40 am ... then one would expect a night reveler; if 3:30 am, one would favor a person who just woke up.

Alice Mckenie was a Ripper murder? There are two things of clear distinction from the others:

#1.During each of the previous murders, the moonlight was in a very low phase of the cycle: it was a new moon for Martha Tabram's murder. With Mary Kelly, it was 45 %, but that murder happened in doors. With Alice Mckenie, it was a much brighter night. The moon rise was anywhere between 9pm and midnight.

#2. It happened early Wednesday morning

If Alice Mckenie was a Ripper victim, than that would be the exception to a otherwise consistent rule (excluding the unclear time of Martha Tabrum's death) implying that the Ripper was someone with a morning routine other than hunting victims, and with Sunday or holidays off.

[Fiver]

One thread that is sorely lacking here is whether Jack the Ripper wandered White Chapel all night, or killed after waking up in the early morning.

And if he killed after waking up, was he heading to work or to do some routine?

Personally, I can't see him wandering all night .... the pubs closed in London by law at 11:30 pm on weekdays.
Why wait until after 3:30 am?

He most probably woke up, and had something to do early morning, and some place to go to.
The question is what and where.

That theory meshes poorly with several times of death.

Martha Tabram was killed between 1:40am and 3:30am.
Annie Chapman was killed 5:30am and 6am.
Elizabeth Stride was killed between 12:45am and 1am.
Catherine Eddowes was killed between 1:30am and 1:45am.
Alice McKenie was killed between 12:30am and 12:50am.

There is no routine between the times of death, which makes it rather unlikely the Ripper had a regular job. If he did, it was a job that had him away and on the streets from midnight to 6am.

[Geddy2112]

This was a good discussion from years ago. Got to agree with David Orsam on this one: the body was most likely discovered around 3:40 am.
When three PCs basically agree on this; and they were on their beats for some time and only wanted accuracy: Neil conferring with Thain to get it right, and Mizen coming up with his time independently .... then you tend to accept their statements over someone who just woke up, and might have glanced at an errant house clock before leaving home. Paul's recollection came at the end of a long work day and the memory of the quarter to four bells (as Christer suggests) might have been imagined by him .... memory is a funny thing. The PCs were probably jotting down the time soon after the discovery and they had a routine where they had to be at a precise location at a precise time cyclically throughout the night.

If Cross (and Paul technically) discovered the body at 3:40am then Cross could not have been the killer unless he lied under oath and since his timings match the other players then it's fairly certain he did not. He had a golden opportunity to give himself a solid alibi if he had read Paul's Remarkable Statement and pushed his timings closer to 3:45am but he did not, this suggests innocence.

When Lech left home doesn't really interest me .... however, if he left home at 3:30 am, he'd have to walk at a very fast pace to make it to work on time ...3:33 am and he'd have to jog to make it on time.

The two shortest routes from Doveton Street to Broad Street are both close to 30 mins at a steady 3.1mph. Of course we do not know which route he used, how fast he walked or exactly what time he left home any morning but his 'about 3:30am' fits nicely and could easily make work in time for 4am.

I have always hated the 3:50 am discovery time of the body by Neil and have no idea why Christer is so fetched with it. Lechmere could have headed out at any time anyone wants him to in order to match their theory.

Of course it's far fetched. He needs it to invent the time gap, which basic maths proves did not exist. Even a page back here Holmgren added in a minute for the hell of it.

The 3:40 am time works for me.

It does likewise but then you have to really disregard Cross as the killer unless you fabricate evidence. The other thing I've noticed from this thread is the 'kill' time. For me it's always been the 'cutting' that is timed, especially in the [still] Missing Evidence. It's quoted as a couple of minutes to do the cutting but what they always seem to fail to mention is the time it would have taken to kill Polly via manual strangulation. Yes she could have been rendered unconscious in a matter of seconds but her heart would still have been pumping, to 'kill' her and effectively stop the heart (which the theory needs for lack of blood) it would have taken at least 5 minutes. That is 5 minutes Cross certainly did not have and has never been factored into the 'time gap.'

[Newbie]

One thread that is sorely lacking here is whether Jack the Ripper wandered White Chapel all night, or killed after waking up in the early morning.

And if he killed after waking up, was he heading to work or to do some routine?

Personally, I can't see him wandering all night .... the pubs closed in London by law at 11:30 pm on weekdays.
Why wait until after 3:30 am?

He most probably woke up, and had something to do early morning, and some place to go to.
The question is what and where.

[Newbie]

This was a good discussion from years ago. Got to agree with David Orsam on this one: the body was most likely discovered around 3:40 am.
When three PCs basically agree on this; and they were on their beats for some time and only wanted accuracy: Neil conferring with Thain to get it right, and Mizen coming up with his time independently .... then you tend to accept their statements over someone who just woke up, and might have glanced at an errant house clock before leaving home. Paul's recollection came at the end of a long work day and the memory of the quarter to four bells (as Christer suggests) might have been imagined by him .... memory is a funny thing. The PCs were probably jotting down the time soon after the discovery and they had a routine where they had to be at a precise location at a precise time cyclically throughout the night.

When Lech left home doesn't really interest me .... however, if he left home at 3:30 am, he'd have to walk at a very fast pace to make it to work on time ...3:33 am and he'd have to jog to make it on time.

I wouldn't completely disregard Paul's time however; Dr. LLewylln testified to Thain arriving around 3:55 am .... so, if Thain left the body and Neil around 3:51 am, he'd arrive at Llewylin's White Chapel road residence at maybe 3:55 am.

I have always hated the 3:50 am discovery time of the body by Neil and have no idea why Christer is so fetched with it. Lechmere could have headed out at any time anyone wants him to in order to match their theory.

The 3:40 am time works for me.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Steve,
Any clock needn't have been on his direct route, only within earshot. Mrs Long said she fixed the time she saw Annie Chapman by the chiming of the brewery clock - there was a big brewery just south of Bath Street. There was also the station which might have had a clock.

And if Cadosche is accurate with his story, then Annie is already being mutilated when Mrs Long makes her sighting.