Why Buck's Row?

[Pinkerton]

There was a Buck's Row near White's Row off Commercial Street, near Christ Church, until 1864, which shouldn't be confused with the Buck's Row that later became Durward Street. It's possible that locally it was still referred to as Buck's Row and that's where the beerhouse was located.

Good call Chris. After looking at the map I noticed White's Row isn't anywhere near the "Buck's Row" where Polly Nichol's was killed.

However Mr. Barnett brings up a good point. I did notice further down in the Old Bailey case (https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/brow...urne#highlight) that a witness also referred to the bar as the "Colleen Bawn". And if it was located between "Court and Thomas" street on Durward then it IS the same Buck's Row as the one where Polly Nichols was killed. One witness also said that it was 5 minutes from Baker's Row, which also makes sound like it is what is now Durward Street. I wonder if perhaps there was a second "White's Row" that was being referred to?

Mr. Barnett, how do you know that the "Colleen Bawn" was torn down by 1888?

[Damaso Marte]

(However, that idea isn't really supported by forensic evidence of the attack, in which she seems to have been upright, not sitting or lying down when attacked.)

Hmm? What forensic evidence suggests this.

[Joshua Rogan]

The Roebuck, I've had a drink in there. It's demolished now sometime in the 90's

The Roebuck, how very apt.

[Observer]

I don't know the name, but there was a pub at the East end of Buck's Row, on the corner at 29 Brady Street.

Also, at least 4 more along Whitechapel Road where it runs parallel to Buck's Row and Winthrop Street, according to an 1895 map.

The Roebuck, I've had a drink in there. It's demolished now sometime in the 90's

[Pierre]

If a woman had been killed at Buck's Row between 3.15 - 3.40am, is it likely that Lechmere would've been one of the first to discover the body?

Obviously, since he did. It is an historical fact. Fisherman wants to change history. But the sources are not cooperating with him.

[Joshua Rogan]

I don't know the name, but there was a pub at the East end of Buck's Row, on the corner at 29 Brady Street.

Also, at least 4 more along Whitechapel Road where it runs parallel to Buck's Row and Winthrop Street, according to an 1895 map.

[MrBarnett]

Hi All,

I think you'll find the beer house was the Colle(e)n Bawn. It was situated between Court Street and Thomas Street, but had been demolished by 1888.

Gary

[ChrisGeorge]

Actually, I believe Pierre could be right. There was a criminal apprehended in the "Collingbourne Beerhouse" in June of 1883 in Buck's Row. If said establishment was still around 5 years later then this could have been the reason Polly was in Buck's Row. Though I don't have the exact address the beer house in question was said to be "...in Buck's Row, quite close to White's Row".

There was a Buck's Row near White's Row off Commercial Street, near Christ Church, until 1864, which shouldn't be confused with the Buck's Row that later became Durward Street. It's possible that locally it was still referred to as Buck's Row and that's where the beerhouse was located.

[Pinkerton]

Collingbourne Beerhouse

Actually, I believe Pierre could be right. There was a criminal apprehended in the "Collingbourne Beerhouse" in June of 1883 in Buck's Row. If said establishment was still around 5 years later then this could have been the reason Polly was in Buck's Row. Though I don't have the exact address the beer house in question was said to be "...in Buck's Row, quite close to White's Row".

[Hair Bear]

There was a workhouse casual ward just off Buck's Row, on Thomas Street. But I suspect you needed to be there a lot earlier than 3 am to get a bed.

I agree. To the point that I find it more probable that she walked to Buck's Row with the Ripper (from Whitechapel Road).

Dr Llewellen said she had "not been dead more than half-an-hour" (my take on that is "between 25mins and 30mins"). This was at either just before 4am or 4am. So let's narrow her time of death down from Neil's 3:15 to 3:45, to between 3:27 to 3:35. If Cross did indeed set off at 3:30, by my reckoning he would reach the corner of Buck's Row at 3:36. And this is why he didn't see or hear anyone, because the Ripper was probably heading down Court street by 3:36!

[Harry D]

If a woman had been killed at Buck's Row between 3.15 - 3.40am, is it likely that Lechmere would've been one of the first to discover the body?

[Joshua Rogan]

There was a workhouse casual ward just off Buck's Row, on Thomas Street. But I suspect you needed to be there a lot earlier than 3 am to get a bed.

[Hair Bear]

Yes, you would think that, wouldn't you? Good question, Hair Bear.

I once asked something similar on another thread about Lechmere, and also asked why on earth, if Lechmere had left earlier than he'd said so he could find likely victims, would he bring one back to a street on his usual route to work to finish her off?

I was told, well, we have no idea how Lechmere and Nichols really met, and it doesn't really matter, anyway, as we do know what happened in Buck's Row. (Right, but to kill her right on his route to work--?)

The only thing that makes some sense to me would be the speculation that Polly had given up trying to turn tricks and was perhaps in Buck's Row looking for a sheltered place to try and sleep, when Lechmere came upon her and decided to get in a quick throat-cutting prior to work. (However, that idea isn't really supported by forensic evidence of the attack, in which she seems to have been upright, not sitting or lying down when attacked.)

What is your answer to your own question?

It's outrageous to suggest that the meeting place of Nichols and the Ripper doesn't matter. Of course it does! Knowing that would help track his movements, which in turn would perhaps lead us closer to his identity.

Re looking for shelter: we need to find out whether shelter could be found by heading East. Whatever the reason for her being there, I would say that just as there is a case for the Ripper to have walked her there (or she him), it is also possible that he came across her, on the grounds that I can't see why he would take her to Buck's Row - or she him - and not down a less-populated cranny.

[Hair Bear]

Drinking?

If you are suggesting she was looking for somewhere to drink, I'm sure she knew where to find one. If so, would that be on Buck's Row?

Everyone else
If Cross did kill her, I agree with the theory that he didn't go find her and then walk her to the very route he took for work. That simply wouldn't make sense. At the same time, if he came across her, why wouldn't he take her off his walking route down one of the side streets?

[John Wheat]

agree that if it wasn't lech, this is the most likely scenario.

Unless there is anything that actually points to Lechmere which there isnt. It is the likely scenario.