Jack's been busy

[Joshua Rogan]

'Oh, murder' just seems trite to me. If you could see the light through the gaps in the floorboards (correct me if I have that wrong), you could almost certainly hear everything that happened in that room. I don't think that there's a big conspiracy here, just ordinary people too scared to admit that what they actually heard that night was a murder, and they did nothing about it.

It may sound trite when in print, but it's not easy to translate what may have simply been a gasp or a shriek into a written word. There's a couple of reports that give it a little more context.

Daily News 13 Nov;
"Perhaps the most sensational bit of evidence tendered was that of a garrulous young woman who, with some dramatic force, imitated by voice and action a sort of nightmare cry of "Oh! murder!" which she declared she had heard just after she had been woke up by her kitten rubbing its nose against her face about half-past three or four o'clock on the morning of the murder. It was a faintish cry, she said, as though somebody had woke up with the nightmare"

The Echo 12 Nov;
And, just as I pushed the kitten away I heard, "Oh! Murder!" It was as if it was a nightmare. It was just "Oh! Oh! (in a faint, gasping way) - Murder!"

Incidentally, I don't think Mrs Prater lived directly above Kelly, but in a first floor front room. So the light she might have seen (but didn't) as she went upstairs would probably have been through the gaps in the partition wall, rather than through the floorboards. She did say she would have been able to hear sounds from downstairs, though.

[Robert St Devil]

'Oh, murder' just seems trite to me.

Hi MsWw.

She,s also record saying, "Oh Carrie..." Maybe "Oh!" was a tendency for her.

[Bridewell]

I think it sounds entirely made up. I actually think she heard something much worse, but didn't want to admit that she had heard it and did nothing to help.

My personal opinion is that in that area, at that time, people were used to turning a blind eye. Culturally, at the time (and for a long time afterwards) women taking a hiding from their partners wasn't something people talked about. Prostitutes today are still routinely raped and beaten by clients. People in that Court may have been aware that Mary's partner was opposed to her selling herself and assumed that the early stages of the attack were actually what we know now as a 'domestic incident'. They may have assumed that it was an assault by a client. I don't know.

'Oh, murder' just seems trite to me. If you could see the light through the gaps in the floorboards (correct me if I have that wrong), you could almost certainly hear everything that happened in that room. I don't think that there's a big conspiracy here, just ordinary people too scared to admit that what they actually heard that night was a murder, and they did nothing about it.

Certainly plausible - but not provable, sadly.

[MysterySinger]

Hi MsWeatherwax

I believe she made the statement - "they say Jack,s been busy in this quarter lately" - to Lottie in October because she called him ,,Jack,,. Were her fears based on the fact that she may have been a streetwalker?

Mary may have believed that she was safe conducting her business in No. 13 because Jack had not set a precedent for home attacks.

Also. If Mary is supposedly educated, why does Joe have to read the newspaper to her?

Assuming that the statement "they say Jack,s been busy in this quarter lately" is true, then IMHO she's referring to quarter as a location rather than a time period - not both. I think that was the original poster's question?

I think we also only have Joe's say so that Kelly asked him to read the papers to her, but makes sense if she was busy doing other things at the time - washing clothes etc.

Seems quite something to think that today we probably have on-line access to the newspapers Barnett would have read to Kelly.

[Robert St Devil]

Hi MsWeatherwax

I believe she made the statement - "they say Jack,s been busy in this quarter lately" - to Lottie in October because she called him ,,Jack,,. Were her fears based on the fact that she may have been a streetwalker?

Mary may have believed that she was safe conducting her business in No. 13 because Jack had not set a precedent for home attacks.

Also. If Mary is supposedly educated, why does Joe have to read the newspaper to her?

[David Orsam]

"We" are not - i.e. yourself - making anything.

I am not "prepared to allow" for anything.

And as usual, you can not read: "if we think the newspapers are reliable,..."

Do you not understand the word IF?

Yes of course I understand the word "if" in the sentence "if we think the newspapers are reliable". It means that you are prepared to allow for the possibility of a newspaper report of inquest proceedings being reliable, which is why I said what I did.

If you disagree, it means you don't actually understand what you have posted.

[Pierre]

We are making progress if Pierre is actually prepared to allow for the possibility of a newspaper report of inquest proceedings being accurate.

"We" are not - i.e. yourself - making anything.

I am not "prepared to allow" for anything.

And as usual, you can not read: "if we think the newspapers are reliable,..."

Do you not understand the word IF?

[MsWeatherwax]

I think it sounds entirely made up. I actually think she heard something much worse, but didn't want to admit that she had heard it and did nothing to help.

My personal opinion is that in that area, at that time, people were used to turning a blind eye. Culturally, at the time (and for a long time afterwards) women taking a hiding from their partners wasn't something people talked about. Prostitutes today are still routinely raped and beaten by clients. People in that Court may have been aware that Mary's partner was opposed to her selling herself and assumed that the early stages of the attack were actually what we know now as a 'domestic incident'. They may have assumed that it was an assault by a client. I don't know.

'Oh, murder' just seems trite to me. If you could see the light through the gaps in the floorboards (correct me if I have that wrong), you could almost certainly hear everything that happened in that room. I don't think that there's a big conspiracy here, just ordinary people too scared to admit that what they actually heard that night was a murder, and they did nothing about it.

[David Orsam]

Secondly, if we think the newspapers are reliable, the statement about a nightmare was an interpretation made by Prater. She was not in the room at the time of the cry. So it was an interpretation of a reason for the cry.

We are making progress if Pierre is actually prepared to allow for the possibility of a newspaper report of inquest proceedings being accurate.

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=richardnunweek;393482]

Hi,
I have mentioned the cry of ''Oh murder '' many times over the years, it is precisely the cry a person would utter , if they were dreaming they were being murdered, as well as actually being killed.
Mrs Prater clearly states at the inquest, the cry she heard was like someone ''Awakening from a nightmare''

Hi Richard,

There are historical problems with the issues discussed.

Firstly, in the original inquest source, as well as in the original police inquest source, Prater does not say anything about awakening from a nightmare. The provenance are the newspapers.

Secondly, if we think the newspapers are reliable, the statement about a nightmare was an interpretation made by Prater. She was not in the room at the time of the cry. So it was an interpretation of a reason for the cry.

It is therefore plausible that the cry heard at 4 a.m was not her actually being attacked, but a recurrence of that dream she told Lottie about.
This would give some brownie points to the witnesses, who claim to have seen Mary alive in daylight hours.

It is therefore not plausible, but possible, that the cry had something to do with a nightmare. But the problem is that the source for Lottie´s statement, which is not a primary source, is later than the newspapers writing about the nightmare statement at the inquest.

Therefore we can not deduce from that secondary source to back up an hypothesis about Prater having made the correct interpretation.

Regards, Pierre

[Robert St Devil]

Thats clever, richardnunweek. Considering the top brass was lauding London as ,practically murder-free, "Oh murder!" must have taken on a life of its own during the hysteria of the autumn. Since constables weren,t finding murders left and right on a weekly basis, there are any number of reasons why it was being ,hoaxed aloud,. It,s somewhat cinematic to imagine Mary waking up in the early hours from that nightmare prior to her murder.

It could have also been an abuse shout. When Kitty meets Lottie, she describes her nose being kicked in by the boot of her husband. Women may have been inclined to shout "Oh murder!" when the abuse became too savage.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
I have mentioned the cry of ''Oh murder '' many times over the years, it is precisely the cry a person would utter , if they were dreaming they were being murdered, as well as actually being killed.
Mrs Prater clearly states at the inquest, the cry she heard was like someone ''Awakening from a nightmare''
It is therefore plausible that the cry heard at 4 a.m was not her actually being attacked, but a recurrence of that dream she told Lottie about.
This would give some brownie points to the witnesses, who claim to have seen Mary alive in daylight hours.
The ''Horrors of drink'' that Mrs Maxwell allegedly said Kelly spoke to her, might be a way of saying I am experiencing alcohol induced symptoms .
Regards Richard.

[Robert St Devil]

Hello richardnunweek.

Mary told this to Lottie sometime in October because, up until the publication of DEAR BOSS, the Whitechapel killer was known as LEATHER APRON as evidenced by J Best. {Not unless Lottie knew another JACK.who Mary was directly referencing}.

I think there may have been some anonymity between Jack and Mary because Mary refers to him by his celebrity name. The conversation did not go:

Mary: They say Charlie,s been busy in this quarter lately.
Lottie: Who,s Charlie?
Mary: He,s Jack the Ripper

If Mary knew who he was, she could have turned a profit thru the media, vigilance committee, &etc before being murdered. She would have been aware of any rewards given if Joe was still reading her the paper.



Interesting to know why McCarthy felt the rush to send the man packing. That insinuates a foul conversation and a loss of temper.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
If I remember correctly,was it not once stated that shortly before Kelly's death a man came to McCarthy and wanted to know where Mary was, he said she had something of his[ a watch I believe] and McCarthy is supposed to have sent him packing
I believe this information came from Fiona Kendall lane, and according to her, her great grandfather [ who was McCarthy] always believed he knew who her killer was.
I wonder if this was here killer, was he Hutchinson's well dressed man. did Mary believe he had forgiven her for the past, and allowed him access to her room.?
If so it cost her life.
Regards Richard.

[DJA]

If she truly stated that she was afraid to go out alone at nite paired with her fear of Jack, do you think she walked the streets?

Nope.
More reason to doubt Hutchinson's statement.