Israel Schwartz in 1901

[The Good Michael]

Just an addition to the language discussion. Wherever Schwarz was from, chances are he spoke Yiddish if from a Jewish community. That language seems to be the common thread throughout Europe and even in the United States and South America. Jewish laws and ways didn't differ so much from place to place, and the Jews living anywhere need to be looked at as Jews speaking their own modern language (Yiddish) and keeping with their own kind. So Schwarz, Hungarian, Russian, Polish, Austrian, or whatever, was a Jew first and foremost. It's great to pinpoint hos place of birth, but one newspaper article does not make him a speaker of Hungarian. In fact, there is no such language as Hungarian, and a good journalist should have known that
Magyar was the language. It is interesting as well that there were minority Magyar speakers throughout the whole area that has been discussed, but I'd say it was Yiddish that Schwarz spoke.

Mike

Thanks to the efforts of Michael Connor and Chris Scott

And Derek Osborne, of course.

Hi Dan,

I had actually typed Derek Osborne's name (Ripperana No. 37, July 2001), along with those of Michael Connor and Chris Scott, but chose not to mention it after all.

Derek Osborne's published work regarding Charles Lechmere ended with little more than a hypothetical connection between the names "Lechmere" and "Cross". Michael Connor delved much more deeply into the connection, in the absence of any knowledge of Osborne's work.

That said; perhaps it was inappropriate for me to leave Osborne's name out of the credits.


Colin

[Dan Norder]

Thanks to the efforts of Michael Connor and Chris Scott

And Derek Osborne, of course.

This candidate for being the Israel Schwartz of 'Ripper' notoriety lived just around the corner from the domicile (April 1881 to March 1888)* of another prominent figure in the 'Ripper' saga: Charles Lechmere.

* widest range of known parameters: earliest possibility being April 1871; latest possibility being August 1888

Charles Lechmere ????????? Who ?????????

Thanks to the efforts of Michael Connor and Chris Scott, we know:

- That this person appeared as "Lechmere" on his 1849 birth certificate, 1871 marriage certificate and 1920 death certificate; as well as census returns of 1851, 1871, 1881, 1891 and 1901(?)

- That his wife and eight living children (of 1891) all appeared as "Lechmere" in various census returns

- That a ninth child (1888-1890) appeared as "Lechmere" on her birth and death certificates

- That this person's only known appearances as "Cross", the name of his stepfather from age eight, occurred in the census returns of 1861 (age 11), and during the investigation of Polly Nichols's murder (age 38)

Ahhh: Charles Cross; right ??? Wrong !!!

Charles Lechmere (aka "Charles Cross") !!! "Cross" was an alias !!! An explicable alias; but still an alias !!!

Anyway; I find the time-staggered closeness in proximity of these two figures interesting (albeit; insignificant, I suppose).

1881 Census of England & Wales
Registration District: St. George in the East
Civil Parish: St. George in the East
Registration Sub-District: St. Mary
Ecclesiastical Parish: St. John the Evangelist
Enumeration District: 11
Page: 1
RG11_451_452-0282

20 James Street
Chas Allen Lechmere
Head
Male
31
Carman
St. Anne Soho

1891 Census of England & Wales
Registration District: St. George in the East
Civil Parish: St. George in the East
Registration Sub-District: St. George North
Ecclesiastical Parish: St. John the Evangelist
Enumeration District: 11
Page: 4
RG12_285_286-0185

22 Samuel Street
Israel Schwartz
Head
Male
29
Tailor's Presser
Poland


2006 Aerial / 1894 OS Overlay
Green w/ Gold Outline: 20 James Street, St. George in the East (changed to 14 James Street, by April 1891)
Red w/ Gold Outline: 22 Samuel Street, St. George in the East


2006 Aerial
Green w/ Gold Outline: 20 James Street, St. George in the East (changed to 14 James Street, by April 1891)
Red w/ Gold Outline: 22 Samuel Street, St. George in the East

Many of the actual thoroughfares in this tiny portion of St. George seem to have survived; but sadly, everything else is gone.


Colin

[Celesta]

Adam, Roy, Glenn, and Jimi,

Good show, Adam, and thank you! A rose is a rose? Maybe not. I didn't think about Austro-Hungary and the political situations in that part of Europe. I should have, since that is the reason for such a large migration of Jewish folk and others out of the region. For a long time, I thought he was Polish.

Thanks, All.

[Jimi]

Israel Schwartz in 1901

Hi All
Hi Adam
Thanks for taking the time to find that link. It does look like a possble hit on his parents, now to see if they entered the country.Thanks a lot.

Hi Chris
Do you know i never thought about him renting premises, and i use to rent a grocers type shop myself! DDOOHH!
However he would still have had to find the money to buy the previous owners stockholding, the rent would have been at least a month in advance and there would have been a payment for fixtures and fittings and goodwill.
I don`t know how much this would have been in victorian times in Whitechapel, but i don`t anticipate it being a small sum.
Keep Well
jimi

[tji]

Hi Adam

Thanks for taking the time to look that up!

It does clear up the confusion we had with regards to the difference in countries.

Your post does indeed show that it is logical that might have been confusion if they kept changing the regions there!!!!

TJI

[adamkle]

Helo Jimi,

I'm not specialist on Israel Schwartz, so I don't know if it will help you.
Searching through database on http://www.jewishgen.org/jri-pl/jriplweb.htm
I found:
Israel M. Schwarz, born 1863, son of Anczel and Beile.
These data came from Tarnopol Voivodship in Galicia, which is ideal because:
- Tarnopol city was Polish until 1772,
- then it became Austrian (and later part of Austria-Hungary),
- now it's Ukrainian. The Ukrainian and Russian influences were always strong there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarnopol

Kind regards,
Adam

[Chris]

Which brings me to the next puzzle.
Does anybody have any input into how Israel Schwartz can learn the English language, raise a family and find the money to buy a grocers shop. All in 10 years. I`ve been trying for over 50 years and i ain`t got nowhere near it!

I think it's more likely he would have rented the premises, which wouldn't have required a big capital outlay.

I'm not sure what evidence there is about his knowledge of English, except that clearly he could sign his name by 1891. That suggests to me that he'd probably learned a reasonable amount of English by then. If he was the same Israel Schwartz who couldn't speak English in late 1888, I assume that means he had arrived in the country quite recently.

[Jimi]

Israel schwartz in 1901

Hi All
Hi Glen
I couldn`t agree more about the language, Glen, but don`t you think that in that area of Whitechapel, at that time, speaking Russian/Hebrew/Polish might not have been that much of a problem for him?
His jobs over that 10 year period that i have seen are a Tailors presser, and a Journeyman Tailor. So where did he get the money from to buy a grocers. When he also had a wife and 4 children to provide for up to buying the grocers.
Just doesn`t sit right.
Or am i just reading to much into it.
Keep Well
jimi

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Damned if I know, Jimi, because he sure as heck couldn't speak any English in 1888.

Well, I suppose it's possible learn the language to some extent in 10 years time, of course. The question would rather be why, when he rarely appears to have bothered about it before 1888, unless he was newly immigrated at that time.

All the best

[Jimi]

Israel Schwartz in 1901

Hi All
Hi Chris
Thanks for the link. Don`t know how we missed that, all i can say is that this is Ripperland after all. thanks for that anyway.
On the Hungary/Poland/Russia question, while i have not done a massive amount of census work i have done enough to realise this sort of thing while not everyday is not rare.
Which brings me to the next puzzle.
Does anybody have any input into how Israel Schwartz can learn the English language, raise a family and find the money to buy a grocers shop. All in 10 years. I`ve been trying for over 50 years and i ain`t got nowhere near it!
Please any input would be useful
Keep Well
Jimi

[Roy Corduroy]

Hi, Celesta and all,

Like you I am scratching my head. It says in books that he was Hungarian. But it was an exclusive to the Star Newspaper. Here is a quote from the research essay by Mr. Bromley linked above.

Schwartz’s nationality

Schwartz’s nationality is only mentioned in the Star reports and he was stated to be Hungarian. There is no mention of his nationality in any of the police or Home Office references. He is merely referred to as a ‘foreigner’. No census records exist for an Israel Schwartz born in Hungary. The records found for an Israel Schwartz, if they relate to the same man, indicate that he was Polish or Russian

---

Gavin also went through a hypothetical exercise to see it Schwartz was - a murderer, in the end not finding any proof that he was, or even any good reason to believe it.

Roy

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Or else it was an error due to language difficulties, and what he really was saying was that he was 'hungry'.

In any case, interesting research, Jimi, although I admit that the absence of the Hungarian detail puzzled me as well. But there could of course be explanations for it.

All the best

[adamkle]

Do I have faulty information? Or did I misinterpret what was said here? I thought Israel was Hungarian. I just read about him this morning, in Tully, and he is described as Hungarian.

He discribed himself as Hungarian, but what could that mean? Maybe he just came from Hungary?
Let's think.
Poland was divided by Russia, Prussia and Austria.
Such regions, as f.e. Galicia was torn by Russia and Austria.
Someone could born in Russian Galicia and then moved to Austrian Galicia and even to Hungarian Budapest, which also was a part of Austria (or Austria-Hungary, since 1867).
So a Pole from Galicia, living in Budapest, could easily say: "Well, I'm Hungarian!"