Israel Schwartz in 1901

[Jeff Leahy]

Blast and Damn I thought we had something new

I dont suppose you do a theatrical yidish voice Mr George?

Pirate

[ChrisGeorge]

Israel Schwartz the witness has not been definitely identified in other records, but the candidate discussed earlier in this thread was at various times a tailor, a tailor's presser, a grocer/provisions dealer and (from family information) a sweet-shop proprietor and watch-repairer.

The Star didn't actually describe him as being employed in the theatre, but said he "had the appearance of being in the theatrical line". Clearly, this was the reporter's opinion, not a claim by Schwartz himself.

On the date of his statement to the police, the Star report (1 October) begins:
"Information which may be important was given to the Leman Street police yesterday by an Hungarian concerning this murder."
http://www.casebook.org/witnesses/schwartz.html

It might also be mentioned that since American-born Harry Dam, known to have been a Star reporter, had an active interest in the theatre, becoming a successful playwright by the mid-1890's, the remark that Schwartz "had the appearance of being in the theatrical line" might have been something that would spring to Dam's mind.

Chris

[lynn cates]

languages

Hello All. There is also the matter of language for the interview. It seems reasonable to assume that, if someone from the club translated for him, it was conducted in Yiddish as it is not clear who else at the club spoke Hungarian.

But it could have been a Hungarian friend at the station with him for the interview.

One newspaper interview, however, may have been conducted in Hungarian (Star reporter?)

So, if there were some "exchange of ideas" in 2 different languages, that could account for the discrepancies.

Cheers.
LC

[Chris]

If i recall correctly, i have never seen Israel Schwartz`s PROFESSION in a census report as an Actor or Singer etc. However, he was reported in a newspaper report as being employed in the theatre. Shades of ego here?

Israel Schwartz the witness has not been definitely identified in other records, but the candidate discussed earlier in this thread was at various times a tailor, a tailor's presser, a grocer/provisions dealer and (from family information) a sweet-shop proprietor and watch-repairer.

The Star didn't actually describe him as being employed in the theatre, but said he "had the appearance of being in the theatrical line". Clearly, this was the reporter's opinion, not a claim by Schwartz himself.

On the date of his statement to the police, the Star report (1 October) begins:
"Information which may be important was given to the Leman Street police yesterday by an Hungarian concerning this murder."
http://www.casebook.org/witnesses/schwartz.html

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi All
Hi Jeff
If i recall correctly, i have never seen Israel Schwartz`s PROFESSION in a census report as an Actor or Singer etc. However, he was reported in a newspaper report as being employed in the theatre. Shades of ego here?

Keep Well
Jimi

Yo, are you saying that you have found Schwartz in a census and he gives his profession as an actor?

Jeff

PS I know assumption is the mother of etc, but I'd always assumed he gave his statement when he went to the police station with an interpretor?

[Jimi]

Israel Schwartz Witness?

Hi All
What a curious witness this man makes. Or was he a witness?
If i start with his relationship with his wife. This man went out for the day leaving his wife to move house (from Berner St. to Backchurch Lane). When he first returned he went to Berner St. to see if she had moved.(why?). Surely he would go to his new lodgings first! And also why was he returning at 12.45 a. m?
Incongruities arise from his interview with the Star on 1st October 18888-:
In the police statement,B.S. man tries to pull Stride from the passage- in the Star interview he tries to push her into the passage(yard).
In the Star interview, it is pipeman who yells a Warning, as opposed to B.S. man shouting "Lipski" in the police interview.
In the Star interview, the second man has red moustaches- in the police statement, there is no mention of moustaches on pipe man, who is then described as having light brown hair.
Perhaps these differences can be understood due to the difficulties in translation. However the police did place a great deal of credence to Schwartz`s statement to them. Problems arise from this (Swansons account of Schwartz`s statement) when it is taken into account that Schwartz`s statement to the police could have been taken weeks after the event.
Although Swansons account is dated November 1st it states as "events taking place on 30th. September" Nowhere does it state that Schwartz`s statement was taken on or around 30th. September.
This surely lends weight to the Star statement which was published on the 1st. October 1888.
So where does this leave Schwartz as a witness?
Keep Well
Jimi

[Jimi]

Israel Schwartz WITNESS?

Hi All
Hi Jeff
If i recall correctly, i have never seen Israel Schwartz`s PROFESSION in a census report as an Actor or Singer etc. However, he was reported in a newspaper report as being employed in the theatre. Shades of ego here?

Keep Well
Jimi

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Norma

What you are arguing is ‘speculation’ and fair enough.

What I’m trying to do is analysis what people claimed to have seen, at what time and what they saw & heard.

I’m simply saying that it is possible that what Schwartz claimed, could have happened, given all the witness accounts and time scales.

Whether you choose to believe that or not is entirely up to you.

If Brown left the chandler shop with his meal at 12.45. He would have had to have stopped dead and turned left looking North down Berner Street to have seen Schwartz and BS turn the corner from Commercial Street and given the time of night and distance, I think it highly unlikely he would have seen Schwartz or BS?

Brown, claim’s he is not that observant, and that his focus was on a couple opposite him, about 30-35 feet away from the chandler shop, outside the board school in Fairclough Street. There are reports of another couple in the area that night, so this is a possibility.

If Liz was hiding in Dutfeild Yard, he would not have seen her.

It takes him perhaps 4 -5 seconds to cross the street and head down Fairclough Street to 35, as Schwartz and BS head South down Berner Street. Neither parties could see each other from their angle/view point.

Schwartz claims Liz screams three times , but not very loudly, and he runs off either South down Berner Street or East down Fairclough Street. Brown has his back to this event and his view only gives him perhaps 3 seconds if Schwartz goes South, longer if Schwartz goes East, if he should turn.

There is a window of Five minutes before Fanny Mortimer is at her door way watching the street, she only sees Goldstein, who is accounted for at approx 1.55.

We know that there is noise coming from the club and that local people are used to disturbances from the club so probably take little notice of the odd shout. The only other person we know is in the area at the time is the person who sold Brown his meal in the chandler shop and our lovers, who could possibly have been busy doing other things.

And lastly there is another witness to Schwartz Story…PIPEMAN.

Who according to the Star was possibly arrested and spoken to by the police.

I will stand by my new motto “THE WHEELIE BINS NEVER LIE”

Yours Jeff

[Natalie Severn]

People would have automatically been drawn to look......

Jeff,
If there had been any kind of violent behaviour of the kind Schwartz claimed he saw at 12.45 that night,with a woman being thrown to the ground and her assailant shouting LIPSKI at the top of his voice to the man with the pipe standing opposite, Schwartz running "incontinently" with his ears pinned back until he reached the railway arches etc then SOMEBODY would have seen it whether they had on donkey blinkers that stopped them seeing sideways or not because their attention would have been immediately drawn to look or strain to hear.
Anyway, thats not an argument I actually buy as our peripheral vision has an astonishing range and we would not be blocked in sight and sound as you suggest.
Best Pirate!
Norma

[Jeff Leahy]

Well the street was clearly very quiet that night Norma.

Fanny Mortimer stood at her down for ten minutes and only saw one person, Goldstein.

As for Brown he only had a very small window of opportunity to witness anything along Berner street, especially if Rob Clack is correct about the building being the same on the other corner ie with no window.

When he leaves the Chandler shop his eyes are faced down Fairclough Street (west) where he see's a couple in front and to his left (in front board school). We must presume that he crosses the road as he lives on that side of Fairclough Street (35) which is how he heres the couple say 'Not tonight'. A couple that are seen by other people and probably NOT Liz and her killer. Brown by his own admission is not very observant.

Browns jounrey (and I intend to time it) will probably take 4 to 5 seconds from the chandler shop to the board school by which time his veiw down Berner street is obscured.

Schwartz and BS could in fact have turned into berner street and already be on there way down without him seeing. It may be takes them 2-3 minutes to reach Dutfeild yard and the incident to occur by which time Brown has reached his house. Even if Brown walks slowly, and Schwart and pipeman run across the junction, they would only be visible to him for 2-3 seconds if by some mirracle he turns around at the exact moment (as he has his back to Berner Street)

If BS then kills Liz, is spooked by someone in the club and heads back North up Berner street past Fanny's door.

and fanny come s to door at 12.50. that gives her 10 minutes before Deimshutz arrives (only seeing Goldstein) and everybodies account fits like a glove.

See you at WS meeting

yours Jeff

[Natalie Severn]

Fact

Jeff,
How do you explain that NOBODY ELSE saw or more importantly perhaps even HEARD what Schwartz said he saw and heard at 12,45? and there were certainly a number of people about - in and out of their houses or the club.How do you explain even that nobody saw Schwartz? And so strange that Mrs Mortimer saw a man with a black bag at that time going past and within the day Leon Goldstein had solved the mystery of who it was---he told police it was himself!How come he didnt see any of this?

[Jeff Leahy]

He may have also had a "theatrical" turn of mind........especially when he realised a reward might be in the offing!
Seriously I have often wondered why nobody else who was out and about saw or heard what Schwartz said he saw and heard.I wonder too if he got his times mixed up or even if he saw all this the day before?
Its a bit like the muddle of witness sightings in Mary Kelly"s case.One saying she saw her at 8 am on the day she was found murdered which totally contradicted the doctors view of the time of death another describing Mary as "little ,dark haired woman" when she was actually 5ft 7ins which was very tall for a woman at that time,and she also had strawberry blond hair.

Does it Norma? It seems to me that all the witness statements time perfectly, and Schwartz estimate of attack is confirmed by Blackwell and Philips.

Browns statement is only problematic until you get his eye view, which was very limited. He almost certainly saw a different couple in Fairclough Street out side the Board School.

I find the statement of 'Theatrical appearance' some what odd and was trying to see if anyone had turned up anything about him?

all the best...only the facts not opinion

Jeff

[Natalie Severn]

He may have also had a "theatrical" turn of mind........especially when he realised a reward might be in the offing!
Seriously I have often wondered why nobody else who was out and about saw or heard what Schwartz said he saw and heard.I wonder too if he got his times mixed up or even if he saw all this the day before?
Its a bit like the muddle of witness sightings in Mary Kelly"s case.One saying she saw her at 8 am on the day she was found murdered which totally contradicted the doctors view of the time of death another describing Mary as "little ,dark haired woman" when she was actually 5ft 7ins which was very tall for a woman at that time,and she also had strawberry blond hair.

[DVV]

Think of Sarkozy, Jeff.
He is short.
Hungarian.
Theatrical.
Wise after the event.

Amitiés,
David

[Jeff Leahy]

Information which has been received was given to the Leaman street police late yesterday afternoon by a Hungarian concerning this murder.. This foreigner was well dressed, and had the appearance of being in the theatical line. He could not speak a word of English, but came to the police station accompanied by a friend who acted as an interpreter. He gave his name and address, but the police have not disclosed them. A star man , however got wind of his call, and ran him to earth in backchurch lane. The reporters Hungarian was quite as imperfect as the foreigners English, but an interpreter was at hand, and the mans story was retold just as he had given it to the police. It is , in fact, to the effect that he SAWTHE WHOLE THING.

I was just wondering if anyone had an opinion on Schwartz profession?

He is described as Theatrical does that tally as a tailor?

Jeff