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'Witness' Elizabeth Long Accomplice?

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  • 'Witness' Elizabeth Long Accomplice?

    Hi All

    Forgive me If this has been mentioned before, but I believe Long may have been an accomplice/ suspect to Chapmans murder. Why? Well seeing as she was adament that she saw Chapman alive at 5.30. When Chapman was discovered at 6.30 why was rigor commencing? Philips believed she had been dead for at least 2 hrs. He then said that due to the cool weather this could be the reason why. But wait a minute, based on the following I doubt it; If the ambient (room) temperature is too close to body heat, Algor Mortis will be quicker, and this would mean the body will get stiff with Rigor Mortis quicker. If the body is kept cold, Rigor Mortis could be postponed even a few days.*

    Also Long's husband had access to carts

    What do you lot think bout this
    Last edited by Natasha; 07-28-2016, 01:58 AM.

  • #2
    Would like to add also that Cadaveric spasm or instantaneous rigor, is actually a rare occurrence. Which is why I believe Chapman was not murdered at the time proposed. I think she may have been dumped there. How can the killer perform mutilation s etc in the dark? I also believe Eddowes may have been dumped at Mitre Square, at least was taken there after rendered unconcious. I said in another thread that I reckon she was already dead when seen by Lawende. it explains the missing half hour

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    • #3
      Interesting, Natasha. Those issues you highlight have always rested uneasily with me. It seems probable to me, although I'm relatively new to these forums & I'm sure those more seasoned in the Murders will have a good counter argument, that they very well could have murdered elsewhere & left to be found; with the exception of Kelly, of course.
      wigngown 🇬🇧

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      • #4
        Parts 2. Or, the Killer was well versed, as far as he able to be, with the comings and goings at that particular time of day, Police, Workers and the like, knew the area very well and had several escape routes in the event of being disturbed. Whichever it was, certainly, he was very cunning and I believe left little if anything to chance.
        wigngown 🇬🇧

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        • #5
          Hi Natasha,
          Are you saying that, because Mrs Long's timing didn't match the Doctor's estimate, she must have had something to do with the murder?
          What about Albert Cadosch, who heard someone or something bang against the fence at 05:20-05:25, or John Richardson, who said the body wasn't there at 04:45? Neither of their timings match either...were they all in it together?

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          • #6
            As I've noted before, estimates of time of death should be taken with a pinch of salt. In fact, because of the many variables the current Forensic Science Regulator states that it shouldn't even be attempted.

            Thus, in the case of rigor mortis, there haven't even been any large longitudinal studies on random samples. However, it is known that there are large "inter-individual variability, due to both endogenous and exogenous factors." (Payne- James et al, 2003).

            For instance, in the 19th century Nickdorn study rigor was fully established after 4-7 hours in the majority of cases. However, in two cases it took a mere 2 hours, and in another two cases 13 hours.

            See:https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...estion&f=false

            Currently, the most useful means of estimating the time of death is Henssge's Nomogram, which relies on three measurements: body temperature, ambient temperature and body weight. However, even this method is at best 2.8 hours either side of the most likely time of death so a total spread of 5.5 hours (ibid p61.)

            As for whether Eddowes was killed elsewhere, I believe there are many problems with this argument, however, it's worth considering, particularly as Lawende is hardly the most inspiring of witnesses.
            Last edited by John G; 07-29-2016, 01:56 PM.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
              Hi Natasha,
              Are you saying that, because Mrs Long's timing didn't match the Doctor's estimate, she must have had something to do with the murder?
              What about Albert Cadosch, who heard someone or something bang against the fence at 05:20-05:25, or John Richardson, who said the body wasn't there at 04:45? Neither of their timings match either...were they all in it together?
              Hi Josh

              Yes I think she may have
              If anything Albert Cadosch. Actually further makes my point valuable, seeing as he heard something fall against the fence at 5.20. I think Chapman was killed else where then dumped in the yard. Explains lack of blood splash, only smears were found. Also I'm sure I read there was smears in the hallway of the house in Hanbury, though I don't think she was killed there.

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              • #8
                Well, OK, but you are aware Dr Phillips disagreed aren't you?

                "[Coroner] In your opinion did she enter the yard alive? - I am positive of it. I made a thorough search of the passage, and I saw no trace of blood, which must have been visible had she been taken into the yard."

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                • #9
                  There were a few other patches of blood on the wall, here's what he said about them;

                  "On the back wall of the house, between the steps and the palings, on the left side, about 18in from the ground, there were about six patches of blood, varying in size from a sixpenny piece to a small point, and on the wooden fence there were smears of blood, corresponding to where the head of the deceased laid, and immediately above the part where the blood had mainly flowed from the neck, which was well clotted."

                  Are you thinking of the blood that was thought to have been seen in a neighbouring house? Phillips couldn't seem to find this;

                  "[Coroner] You were shown some staining on the wall of No. 25, Hanbury-street? - Yes; that was yesterday morning. To the eye of a novice I have no doubt it looks like blood. I have not been able to trace any signs of it. I have not been able to finish my investigation. I am almost convinced I shall not find any blood.

                  The Coroner: Have you anything further to add with reference to the stains on the wall?
                  Dr. Phillips: I have not been able to obtain any further traces of blood on the wall. "

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                  • #10
                    Such a small amount of blood for someone who had had their throat cut.

                    The blood in the neighbouring hse, someone may have washed the blood off the wall. Someone who lived there. Nichols blood was washed away, by the witnesses son who lived where Nichols was killed.

                    The killer may have wrapped up the injuries or attempted to clean the blood away maybe, perhaps that's why Long was there. Also there was no mention of her woollen scarf amongst her possessions. That may have been used to stop the bleeding.

                    I believe Chapman was dead longer than stated. Long's testimony is fishy. How could Chapman be seen at 5.30 and Cadosch have heard Chapmans possible murder at 5.20/25? He didn't even see any couple in the street. The body was stiff in the legs, I know ppl have different refs for rigor but I would say in general 2 hrs is minimal for rigor to start.

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                    • #11
                      How much "dead weight" can an adult male and female carry? Im going to assume Long would struggle to carry her end of the body. If so, then that's probably three people required to carry Chapman's not insignificant weight plus lie to the police.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by jason_c View Post
                        How much "dead weight" can an adult male and female carry? Im going to assume Long would struggle to carry her end of the body. If so, then that's probably three people required to carry Chapman's not insignificant weight plus lie to the police.
                        Well I'm a female who has done my fair share of slinging drunks, who were adult male dead weight. I'm not super strong, but with two people it's manageable. Probably quite a bit more so if you are SUPER motivated like you might be with a corpse on your hands.
                        The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

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