Circumstances

[David Orsam]

They were clear that there was a separate murder ,,last Christmas week,, from the Easter murder, but it never garnered much attention from the press or public.

You mean a sort of secret murder that the Daily News found out about but which we know nothing of today?

[Robert St Devil]

No worries, David. Some good discussions happening on the other threads lately.

I,ll abandon the second question since it is sophomore speculation on my part. Certain press publications were brutal on Mr. Matthews and Sir Ch. Warren, but i would clearly need more evidence to begin to even speculate that MP Hunter was lobbying for them.

I don,t think the Daily News intermingled the story. That same Nov 10 issue [same paragraph], they follow up on the above comment with:

About Easter time another murder was committed in the same region which appeared to belong to the newly invented order of assassination.

They were clear that there was a separate murder ,,last Christmas week,, from the Easter murder, but it never garnered much attention from the press or public.

Because of the nearness of the article to his Nov 24 appeal to broaden pardons for all accomplices AND for some of the similar verbiage that you posted that he used, yes, i could see this article being the source of his confusion.

[David Orsam]

Hello David.

This piece of an article appeared in Daily News on 10 November 1888.

It is well to trace back this recent history of crime in the East end. It began last Christmas week, when a woman was found bleeding and mangled in one of the poorest streets of Whitechapel. She was barbarously wounded, and in a manner somewhat like that which has characterised all the subsequent murders. She lived, if we are not mistaken, long enough to say that the crime was the work of several men. [The article does refute the idea of Jack the Ripper being "several men" later on.]



Is MP Hunter simply referencing an article that he had read 2 weeks prior?
Could he be forwarding some press agenda on the Home Secretary re: accomplices?

Hi Robert,

Clearly the Daily News has intermingled the story of the murder of Emma Smith and the story of the murder of "Fairy Fay" which could easily have been the source of MP Hunter's confusion.

I don't understand what you mean when you suggest Hunter might be "forwarding some press agenda". As far as I'm concerned, it's just a mistake due to the lack of facts available regarding the early murder(s).

[Robert St Devil]

Are you sure he didn't really say "several men"?

Hello David.

This piece of an article appeared in Daily News on 10 November 1888.

It is well to trace back this recent history of crime in the East end. It began last Christmas week, when a woman was found bleeding and mangled in one of the poorest streets of Whitechapel. She was barbarously wounded, and in a manner somewhat like that which has characterised all the subsequent murders. She lived, if we are not mistaken, long enough to say that the crime was the work of several men. [The article does refute the idea of Jack the Ripper being "several men" later on.]

But the exact number is not important here, only what was in Mr Hunter's mind. He used the expression "several persons" in the House of Commons, although he wasn't fully on top of the facts because he referred to the murder having taken place "last Christmas" so he was getting confused with the supposed murder of Fairy Fay.

Is MP Hunter simply referencing an article that he had read 2 weeks prior?
Could he be forwarding some press agenda on the Home Secretary re: accomplices?

[David Orsam]

Is this Parliament,s broadstroke (re)action to assuming some direction over the method of investigation, David, and an indication of their desire to undermine Warren, s policies in lieu of his resignation?

I think he wanted to know why there hadn't been a pardon offered for any of the earlier murders.

[Robert St Devil]

Not necessarily.

And not necessarily for the subsequent murders either, which is no doubt why Hunter was pressing for such a pardon in order to encourage any such accomplice to come forward.

Is this Parliament,s broadstroke (re)action to assuming some direction over the method of investigation, David, and an indication of their desire to undermine Warren, s policies in lieu of his resignation?

Aside: Hi Ros. I know that fingerprinting wasn't yet a forensic practice in 1888, but I believe that Det. Adderline smart enough to make some account of prints if there were any (ie. A measurement, location, comparative). It is peculiar that no traces or tracks were discovered in her apaetment considering his hands must have been dripping after reaching into her chest cavity. It puts me at odds whether he was operating surgically or clinically.

[David Orsam]

Just wondering since its clear the there is no relationship at all between Emma Smith and the Pardon offer issued Nov 10th.

The relationship is that a Member of Parliament asked the Home Secretary why no pardon was offered in the case of Emma Smith (and the other murders) where it was believed by him to be equally if not more likely that there was an accomplice or accomplices. See my post #48.

[Michael W Richards]

Is this discussion about who killed Emma Smith or what the "certain circumstances" were that made a Pardon for Accomplice the day after Kellys murder warranted? Just wondering since its clear the there is no relationship at all between Emma Smith and the Pardon offer issued Nov 10th. Nor is there between Emma and women who were attacked by one person in the Fall for the purposes of murder and post mortem mutilation...but I realize thats never stopped anyone from imagining one.

[David Orsam]

how many men constitute a group or a gang?

Three (hence the famous phrase "Gang of Three"), or any number which can be expressed as "several persons".

[curious4]

Two or three is not exact! And according to Chief Inspector West's report she said "there were three of them".

But the exact number is not important here, only what was in Mr Hunter's mind. He used the expression "several persons" in the House of Commons, although he wasn't fully on top of the facts because he referred to the murder having taken place "last Christmas" so he was getting confused with the supposed murder of Fairy Fay.

The Times and the Sourcebook, (quoting Chief Inspector West), give the number as three men. Sometimes she is quoted as saying two or three men. How many men make a group of men? Not two, anyway. I feel it is important to make this clear. Many of the newer members could get the idea that Emma was attacked by a gang. It is not surprising that she was vague, badly injured and ill as she was. I think it is important to get what facts there are clear. And to quote sources so as to avoid the accusation of having made things up as one goes.

So once again: how many men constitute a group or a gang? Or a "number of men".

C4

[David Orsam]

Two or three men to be exact.

Two or three is not exact! And according to Chief Inspector West's report she said "there were three of them".

But the exact number is not important here, only what was in Mr Hunter's mind. He used the expression "several persons" in the House of Commons, although he wasn't fully on top of the facts because he referred to the murder having taken place "last Christmas" so he was getting confused with the supposed murder of Fairy Fay.

[curious4]

As I mentioned in #74, he noted that Emma Smith had said that she had been attacked by a group of men

Two or three men to be exact.

C4

[David Orsam]

Yes, David, i read your post. Wouldn,t the group of men be perpetrarors without accomplice?

Not necessarily.

And not necessarily for the subsequent murders either, which is no doubt why Hunter was pressing for such a pardon in order to encourage any such accomplice to come forward.

[Robert St Devil]

As I mentioned in #74, he noted that Emma Smith had said that she had been attacked by a group of men

Yes, David, i read your post. Wouldn,t the group of men be perpetrarors without accomplice?

[David Orsam]

my question would be: did Mr. Hunter know of an accomplice from an earlier murder who needed a pardon?

As I mentioned in #74, he noted that Emma Smith had said that she had been attacked by a group of men