Pinchin Street Torso - who did it?

[Sam Flynn]

Show me where I claimed everything was linked to 1 person

That wasn't my point. I was pointing out that "the same general time frame" and "the same general area" are exceedingly vague criteria against which to compare the murders. This becomes even more apparent when one looks at the specifics and abandons such generalities.

I think we are all old enough here that common courtesy should be extended in what is specifically an opinion thread.

I wasn't in the least bit discourteous.

[Dane_F]

Believe me, I wasn't being disingenuous in the slightest, and I sincerely meant everything I said.

I'm not automatically writing it off. I'm writing it off because there is no significant similarity between the two series at all.

Show me where I claimed everything was linked to 1 person, show me where I said all the torso murders were connected to all of the C5 otherwise admit you overstepped your bounds.

I've made no definitive claims and I've made it quite clear that everything I've stated was just what convinced *me* to think a certain way. I refuse to be bullied by someone putting words in my mouth that I never said to try and paint me in a false light simply because what I've said doesn't line up with their preconceived theories.

The point of this thread was for each person to give their opinion about the PST killer. You don't have the right or jurisdiction to try and minimize or shame MY opinion simply because it doesn't match YOUR opinion. I think we are all old enough here that common courtesy should be extended in what is specifically an opinion thread.

[Fisherman]

You see, Abby, Gareths little game here lies in the ”significant” bit - we cannot say that a similarity IS truly significant before we have the solution. That is why I call Gareths effort disingenuous. It’ s a game of semantics entirely and not a worthy argument. The similarities are of course quite enough to make a call of ”beyond reasonable doubt”. Then again, there is nothing reasonable about Gareths efforts.

[Abby Normal]

Believe me, I wasn't being disingenuous in the slightest, and I sincerely meant everything I said.



I'm not automatically writing it off. I'm writing it off because there is no significant similarity between the two series at all.

lol.
yeah. noses cut off in both cases
stomach flesh cut off in flaps in both cases
faces gashed in both cases
unfortunates in both cases
internal organs removed in both cases
genitals mutilated in both cases
necks cut in both cases
vertical slices on the abdoman in both cases
unsolved in both cases
london in both cases
80s time frame in both cases
bodies left in public, shocking and odd ways in both cases
no overt attempts to hide in both cases
knife used in both cases.

im actually getting tired of listing all the similarities.

"no significant similarities" bah!

similarities. simple facts.

[Fisherman]

Believe me, I wasn't being disingenuous in the slightest, and I sincerely meant everything I said.

Sadly, there is no contradiction inbetween the two, Gareth. You can be sincere and mean what you say AND disingenuous simultaneously.

I'm not automatically writing it off. I'm writing it off because there is no significant similarity between the two series at all.

Wrong. False. Misleading. And totally and utterly disingenuous.

[Sam Flynn]

Come now, You're being extremely disingenuous.

Believe me, I wasn't being disingenuous in the slightest, and I sincerely meant everything I said.

To automatically write off the torso murders as a whole from having any connect to JtR

I'm not automatically writing it off. I'm writing it off because there is no significant similarity between the two series at all.

[Abby Normal]

There is still a lot of very improductive flat out denial of established facts going on regarding a link between the Ripper and the Torso killer; "The torso killer was no eviscerator", "The similarities are superficial only", "The flaps from Jacksons belly did not look anything like the ones from Chapman and Kelly", "Once a dismembered, always a dismemberer", "The Torso killer almost certainly had his base in the West" and such things, all of them baseless drivel.
Letīs hope there are better days ahead.

absolutely fish
too much twisting, misinformation, minimalizing and semantic nonsense from others on the other side. and what pisses me off is that we can at least admit that there are obvious differences. and the idea that it could possibly still be two different men.

no such courtesy from the other side at all.

[Fisherman]

I think we can stop there. For "same general time frame", read "happened within the same two and a half decades" - well, so did many, many other murders. For "in the same general area", read "the whole of London; one series in the West, another concentrated on a handful of streets in the East".

These parameters are much, much too wide to draw any inference, as is the conjecture that all the victims were prostitutes - which we don't know but, even if they were, then prostitutes are frequently targeted by killers, serial or otherwise.

We don't even know that we're dealing with one torso murderer, or even one Ripper for that matter. However many TMs/Rippers there were, they were extemely unlikely to have been one and the same person(s).

This is not a very good post.

What we should look at when investigating whether two series of murders can be geographically connected is whether the distances involved inbetween the sites can be bridged. In this case, they could be WALKED!

What we should look at when investigating whether two series of murders can be chronologically cinnected is whether the time spaces represented by the series allow for a single killer. In this case, the time spaces OVERLAPPED.

Gareth now tells us that the parameters are "much, much too wide to draw any inference", and that too is a not very good suggestion. The REAL question is whether the common inclusions are rare enough to make a call of a probable link, and they are. When we have two series involving as rare details as is the case here, it matters not if the series are committed in a village of 10 000 people or in a town of five millions. Yes, the chance of finding a three-armed man with fifteen toes on each foot is larger in a town of five million people than in a village of 10 000 people - but there will only be one such man REGARDLESS of the size of the place where he is found.

The same goes for an eviscerator who takes out hearts and uteri, who cuts from pubes to ribs, who steals rings, who cuts away the abdominal wall in sections, who cuts away colon sections, who makes prostitutes a target, who is reported to be a very skilled knifeman and who does not torture his victims physically. He is as rare a creature as the three armed man with fifteen toes on each foot. If not, find me one such man from the annals of crime who was not involved in the victorian murder series.

Now, no more talking about any geographical or chronological obstacles - because they were never there in the first place. Reason, please!!!

[Abby Normal]

Here here Fisherman. Many people are so tied to their theories that any information, even factual, that goes against it is ignored outright.

Since this thread is specifically about the PST I went back through my old posts spread throughout and copied the relevant, factual evidence based off the autopsy, as to the similarities between this torso and some of the C5. Below is parts of a couple of posts I made years ago that I feel are revelant (the original thread is the Whitehall Mystery one):


I went back to the Hebbert Autopsy reports that Debra was so very kind to link to earlier in this thread and read what they had to say about the Pinchin St. Torso.

Fact #1: From just below the neck there was a long gash that cut through the skin and the muscle of the abdomen all the way down past the pubes opening the vagina and stopping slightly past it in the left inner thigh area.

Fact #2: The neck was very clearly cut. Two incisions were made. One starting from behind beginning opposite the spine and moving left to right ending in the front on the right side. The 2nd beginning in the front right and continuing to the back meeting the other incision. The muscle and tissue down to the spine were cut to the same level. In the report he states that the neck and leg incisions had very clear-cut edges. The edges of the cuts show a very sharp knife was used.

Fact #3: The autopsy report states (and I will direct quote this to be clear), "The incisions were evidently made with design, and were skillfully performed. . ."

So we have the autopsy report by Hebbert (with permission of Dr. Bond to reproduce) stating, 1) the vagina was in fact cut. 2) the neck was in fact cut. 3) these cuts were made with design and skillfully performed.

-----



What start to narrow things down as highly unlikely, at least IMO, is having two killers in the same general time frame, in the same general area, both focusing on "unfortunates", both mutilating bodies, both taking organs in some cases, both mutilating genitals in some cases, both never being seen in the act or around the bodies, both never being caught, and both showing no signs of actually having sex with the victims. That starts to build up a long list of "coincidences" that becomes hard to ignore. Again, IMO.

hi dane
great posts and i couldnt agree more! i would just add that they also both left bodies in odd and shocking ways and imho they also both end at the same time with pinchin and mckenzie. way too many coincidences for me too.

[Dane_F]

I think we can stop there. For "same general time frame", read "happened within the same two and a half decades" - well, so did many, many other murders. For "in the same general area", read "the whole of London; one series in the West, another concentrated on a handful of streets in the East".

These parameters are much, much too wide to draw any inference, as is the conjecture that all the victims were prostitutes - which we don't know but, even if they were, then prostitutes are frequently targeted by killers, serial or otherwise.

We don't even know that we're dealing with one torso murderer, or even one Ripper for that matter. However many TMs/Rippers there were, they were extemely unlikely to have been one and the same person(s).

Come now, You're being extremely disingenuous. Where did I ever claim ALL the torso murders were linked to one murderer? I'm not even sure all of the C5 was done by Jack. I think a strong case could be made for Liz Jackson and PST being linked to JtR. Especially between Liz Jackson and Kelly since the similarities between those two are closer than Kelly to any of the other C5s in my eyes.

However, my point was in saying similar time frame and location is that there was plenty of torso murders happening from 87- early 90s that I would absolutely say fit those criteria.

To automatically write off the torso murders as a whole from having any connect to JtR has been a huge disservice to JtR research for 100 years now.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Just to further complicate things, the Scotland Yard torso and Pinchin Street were in more advanced states of decomposition, Elizabeth Jackson was dumped recently after her death. So where were the SY and PS corpses stored before being disposed of? And if Jackson's killer was the same person, why was she not kept for longer?

[Sam Flynn]

What start to narrow things down as highly unlikely, at least IMO, is having two killers in the same general time frame, in the same general area

I think we can stop there. For "same general time frame", read "happened within the same two and a half decades" - well, so did many, many other murders. For "in the same general area", read "the whole of London; one series in the West, another concentrated on a handful of streets in the East".

These parameters are much, much too wide to draw any inference, as is the conjecture that all the victims were prostitutes - which we don't know but, even if they were, then prostitutes are frequently targeted by killers, serial or otherwise.

We don't even know that we're dealing with one torso murderer, or even one Ripper for that matter. However many TMs/Rippers there were, they were extemely unlikely to have been one and the same person(s).

[Dane_F]

Here here Fisherman. Many people are so tied to their theories that any information, even factual, that goes against it is ignored outright.

Since this thread is specifically about the PST I went back through my old posts spread throughout and copied the relevant, factual evidence based off the autopsy, as to the similarities between this torso and some of the C5. Below is parts of a couple of posts I made years ago that I feel are revelant (the original thread is the Whitehall Mystery one):


I went back to the Hebbert Autopsy reports that Debra was so very kind to link to earlier in this thread and read what they had to say about the Pinchin St. Torso.

Fact #1: From just below the neck there was a long gash that cut through the skin and the muscle of the abdomen all the way down past the pubes opening the vagina and stopping slightly past it in the left inner thigh area.

Fact #2: The neck was very clearly cut. Two incisions were made. One starting from behind beginning opposite the spine and moving left to right ending in the front on the right side. The 2nd beginning in the front right and continuing to the back meeting the other incision. The muscle and tissue down to the spine were cut to the same level. In the report he states that the neck and leg incisions had very clear-cut edges. The edges of the cuts show a very sharp knife was used.

Fact #3: The autopsy report states (and I will direct quote this to be clear), "The incisions were evidently made with design, and were skillfully performed. . ."

So we have the autopsy report by Hebbert (with permission of Dr. Bond to reproduce) stating, 1) the vagina was in fact cut. 2) the neck was in fact cut. 3) these cuts were made with design and skillfully performed.

-----



What start to narrow things down as highly unlikely, at least IMO, is having two killers in the same general time frame, in the same general area, both focusing on "unfortunates", both mutilating bodies, both taking organs in some cases, both mutilating genitals in some cases, both never being seen in the act or around the bodies, both never being caught, and both showing no signs of actually having sex with the victims. That starts to build up a long list of "coincidences" that becomes hard to ignore. Again, IMO.

[Fisherman]

There is still a lot of very improductive flat out denial of established facts going on regarding a link between the Ripper and the Torso killer; "The torso killer was no eviscerator", "The similarities are superficial only", "The flaps from Jacksons belly did not look anything like the ones from Chapman and Kelly", "Once a dismembered, always a dismemberer", "The Torso killer almost certainly had his base in the West" and such things, all of them baseless drivel.
Letīs hope there are better days ahead.

[Dane_F]

Hello Dane

what exactly do you consider genital mutilations on at least a couple of Torso cases?

I believe the only torso victim to have suffered genital wounds was EJ, whose vagina was divided by the cuts opening her belly. I personally do not believe such should be considered “genital mutilation” as it is clearly coincidental to cutting her up.

By your consideration, should you not rather believe the Ripper was NOT involved in the torso cases, because of the lack genital interest in those cases?

Hello Katt as Fisherman pointed out PSW as well had cuts to her genitals and I would also consider the cut/cuts to EJ as genital mutilation.

Years back Deb sent me the link to the actual scans of the autopsy reports (as published) and I remember thinking if the killers only goal was to access EJ's stomach the wounds inflicted need not run so far or enter the vagina.

Of course everything can be called happenstance. It just so happened there were two serial killers operating in a similar area. It just so happened they operated at roughly the same time. It just so happened that they both on at least occasion engaged in genital mutilation.

That has been the argument for years in ignoring the torso murders and any possible connection to JtR. Do keep in mind however, I make no exorbitant claims on the matter. I was simply giving what evidence convinces me.