The case evidence and its implications

[Sam Flynn]

Come on, Sam. Let's not split hairs. It was still in Whitechapel, a district of less than a square mile.

I'm not splitting hairs. The sites of Stride's murder and Pinchin Street were well below the line delimited by Whitechapel Rd/Whitechapel High St/Aldgate. All the murders which unequivocally featured "ripping" happened above that line.

And Nichols' murder is actually furthest from the group than any of them. You wouldn't preclude her on those grounds?

I'm not talking about distance, but about a killer who didn't cross the physical, and possibly psychological, boundary of Whitechapel Rd/High St/Aldgate. If, as I believe was likely the case, we base the killer in central Spitalfields, we can fan out for similar distances at either side to reach the scenes of the Eddowes and Nichols murders, with the sites of Chapman's and Kelly's sitting not far from the apex of this imaginary arc.

[FrankO]

Hi FrankO,

Dr. Neville examined the arm first and said the date of death was 3 to 4 days prior to his examination on the 11th/12th of September. He was confident Dr. Bond would conclude the same. Dr. Neville was not called to the inquest.

Thanks for the addition, Jerry!

[Harry D]

Well, he didn't really, as Pinchin Street was a bit off the beaten track for the Ripper (as was Stride, if we're honest), and the PST doesn't exactly share too many characteristics with the Ripper murders. Furthermore, PST still had its arms attached, which is not something that we associate with "the" Torso Killer at all. It looks very likely to me that, whoever was responsible for PST, they were different from the perpetrator(s) of the "West London Torsos", and not Jack the Ripper either.

Come on, Sam. Let's not split hairs. It was still in Whitechapel, a district of less than a square mile.

And Nichols' murder is actually furthest from the group than any of them. You wouldn't preclude her on those grounds?

[Sam Flynn]

Pinchin St torso is intriguing. Why would the Torso Killer (if it was the same guy) step into Ripper turf?

Well, he didn't really, as Pinchin Street was a bit off the beaten track for the Ripper (as was Stride, if we're honest), and the PST doesn't exactly share too many characteristics with the Ripper murders. Furthermore, PST still had its arms attached, which is not something that we associate with "the" Torso Killer at all. It looks very likely to me that, whoever was responsible for PST, they were different from the perpetrator(s) of the "West London Torsos", and not Jack the Ripper either.

[Harry D]

I think most of the torsos were in fact the work of one killer, or a conspiracy. I don't think they were unconnected or random.

Pinchin St torso is intriguing. Why would the Torso Killer (if it was the same guy) step into Ripper turf? And a couple of months after the murder of Alice Mackenzie, no less. Hmmmm...

[Meerkat]

There seems to be a link with the body parts found of Elizabeth Jackson in 1889 and the Battersea Mystery !

On 5 September 1873, the left quarter of a woman's trunk was discovered by a Thames Police patrol near Battersea. Subsequently, a right breast was found at Nine Elms, a head at Limehouse, a left forearm at Battersea, a pelvis at Woolwich, until an almost complete body of a dismembered woman had been found. The nose and the chin had been cut from the face, and the head had been scalped.

On 4 June 1889 a female torso was found in the Thames at Horsleydown, and more body parts were soon found in the Thames the next week.^[3]

The London Times reported on 11 June that the remains found so far "are as follows: Tuesday, left leg and thigh off Battersea, lower part of the abdomen at Horselydown; Thursday, the liver near Nine Elms, upper part of the body in Battersea-Park, neck and shoulders off Battersea; Friday, right foot and part of leg at Wandsworth, left leg and foot at Limehouse; Saturday, left arm and hand at Bankside, buttocks and pelvis off Battersea, right thigh at Chelsea Embankment, yesterday, right arm and hand at Bankside

I am not saying this is anything to do with the ripper but these body parts and deaths do seem to be linked with the same killers MO

And ofcourse the areas which are so similar !

[Scott Nelson]

Rosemary, where have you been?!!!

[Rosemary]

Dang, I thought this was the ‘angels on a pinhead’ thread!
I do enjoy all of you and your hearty responses, and I’ will admit, I know less than nothing!!

[Joshua Rogan]

Hi FrankO,

Dr. Neville examined the arm first and said the date of death was 3 to 4 days prior to his examination on the 11th/12th of September. He was confident Dr. Bond would conclude the same. Dr. Neville was not called to the inquest.

Also, regarding the leg. After finding the torso, the police searched the vault for more body parts prior to the 17th (the finding of the leg) and came up empty. In addition, Detective-sergeant Rose states he had bloodhounds and terriers in the vault prior to the 17th and found nothing. I guess Smoker was a superior sniffer?? Or the leg wasn't in that location until after DS Rose had his dogs in there?

This report seems to indicate it was unlikely that the leg had been buried there recently;

Daily News 18 Oct;
"An additional discovery of human remains was made yesterday, in the vault of the new police buildings, on the Thames Embankment, where the trunk of a female was found a fortnight ago. Mr. Jasper T. C. Waring had placed a Spitzbergen terrier at the service of the authorities, and shortly before noon yesterday the animal was taken to the vault by its owner in order to test its powers of scent. The dog almost immediately commenced scratching at a mound of earth not more than a yard and a half from the spot where the first discovery was made. Some tools were obtained, and the excavation commenced, the excitement of the terrier meantime increasing. After a few inches of soil had been removed, the animal seized hold of an object which proved to be a portion of a human leg. A considerable quantity of soil adhered to it, but it was evident, even by the dim light of a candle, that the limb had been severed at the knee joint. A police-constable who was on duty at the works came up at the moment, and at once reported the circumstance at the King-street Police-station, meanwhile forbidding the continuation of the digging until the arrival of his chiefs. Dr. Bond, divisional surgeon, was summoned, and stated that the remains which had been unearthed were the left foot and lower part of the leg of a well-developed woman. From its decomposed state he judged that the limb had been deposited in the vault at least six weeks ago, in all probability forming part of the body the trunk of which was recently found at the same spot, and one arm of which was discovered in the river near Grosvenor Bridge. At the conclusion of the examination the limb was wrapped in brown paper, and taken to the mortuary. Subsequently the terrier was further employed in searching for other portions of the remains, and the police were engaged in digging the ground in various parts of the vaults.

On inquiry at King-street Police-station last night it was stated that no further discovery had been made, but that arrangements had been completed for the thorough examination of the floors of the vaults. It turns out that the earth by which the limb was covered was thrown back from an excavation made some eight or ten weeks ago. This confirms the medical statement as to the length of time during which the leg had been deposited, while it also has some bearing upon the date when the other remains were placed in the vault. The workmen asserted that the body was not there on the Friday previous to its discovery; but in Dr. Bond's view the blood-stains on the wall of the vault had been so thoroughly absorbed as to suggest that they had been there a considerable length of time. At any rate, it is quite clear that the leg found yesterday could not have been recently deposited, as a strict surveillance of the premises has been maintained by the police since the first startling discovery. More than that, the hoarding all round the site of the buildings has been increased in height by about 3ft, so that it would be absolutely impossible to climb over it. "

[jerryd]

Hi John,

• Dr Hebbert examined the arm on 16 September and I think his view was that death of the proprietor of the arm took place 3 to 4 weeks earlier. This would put her death at the latest on or close to 26 August.
• Dr Hebbert wrote that the torso was about 2 months dead, while Dr Bond stated that the date of death would have been 6 weeks to 2 months before. They had examined the torso on 3 October. This would put the victim's death at the latest on or close to 22 August.
• In the case of the leg & foot Dr Hebbert opined that death had taken place 6 weeks to 2 months before the examination, which would put her death at the latest (and as Christer wrote) on (or close) to 5 September.

Summing this up, one might say that the Whitehall victim was murdered, at the latest, between 22 August and 5 September, with the balance perhaps a little more towards the 22nd of August. This would fit in nicely with the piece of newspaper of 24 August found where the torso had lain. If the body was not stored, it means that the arm just wasn't found for 6 days at least, quite possibly more, and that the torso just wasn't found for 26 days at least. One can make of this what one wants.

All the best,
Frank

Hi FrankO,

Dr. Neville examined the arm first and said the date of death was 3 to 4 days prior to his examination on the 11th/12th of September. He was confident Dr. Bond would conclude the same. Dr. Neville was not called to the inquest.

Also, regarding the leg. After finding the torso, the police searched the vault for more body parts prior to the 17th (the finding of the leg) and came up empty. In addition, Detective-sergeant Rose states he had bloodhounds and terriers in the vault prior to the 17th and found nothing. I guess Smoker was a superior sniffer?? Or the leg wasn't in that location until after DS Rose had his dogs in there?

[Fisherman]

Well that last sentence confirms that you have really lost the plot.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

... he said, conversing in writing. Try to google "written conversation" (67 200 hits) and you may - I don't dare to hope too much, so its "may" only - see what I mean.

[Trevor Marriott]

FOUR DIFFERENT PEOPLE!!??? Wow, that's really damning.

Od course I want to take it further, and I will do so without taking any of the advice you offer, Trevor. I will press the point that Rutty is the better source compared to Biggs for as long as it is a truth - and it will be until Biggs specializes in dismemberment and writes a groundbreaking work on it. Letīs just hope that Biggs understands that itīs best avoided to use co-writers, even if they, each and every one of them, specialize in different aspects of dismemberment.

Truth be told, I cannot say that I've given up on you, Trevor. That would mean that I invested hope in you at some time, and to be perfectly honest...

I would like to end this post of mine by pointing out the you and I are having a conversation over the net. In writing.

Well that last sentence confirms that you have really lost the plot.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Fisherman]

No, on one side we have an expert who has reviewed the written medical evidence from 1888 and given his professional opinions "in writing" not in conversation ! which should not be disregarded as you seem to want to do in favor of a book written and researched by 4 different people.

And on the other side we have you, who has read a book on dismemberment, and uses what he has read to interpret the medical reports to suit.

That not how it works, and the sooner you realize and accept that the better for all.

If you want to take this further I suggest you write to Rutty and send him the medical reports on the torsos and ask him to review them in the same way Dr Biggs has done and then publish his opinions in writing just as I have done with Dr Biggs and I would be interested in finding out just how far back in time his research was done in relation to dismemberment.


www.trevormarriott.co.uk

FOUR DIFFERENT PEOPLE!!??? Wow, that's really damning.

Od course I want to take it further, and I will do so without taking any of the advice you offer, Trevor. I will press the point that Rutty is the better source compared to Biggs for as long as it is a truth - and it will be until Biggs specializes in dismemberment and writes a groundbreaking work on it. Letīs just hope that Biggs understands that itīs best avoided to use co-writers, even if they, each and every one of them, specialize in different aspects of dismemberment.

Truth be told, I cannot say that I've given up on you, Trevor. That would mean that I invested hope in you at some time, and to be perfectly honest...

I would like to end this post of mine by pointing out the you and I are having a conversation over the net. In writing.

[Trevor Marriott]

No, Trevor, we also have YOU, interpreting what a non-expert has told you in a conversation. All understanding is about interpreting. You have interpreted Biggs as meaning that no two dismemberment murders are dissimilar, they are all enough alike to ensure the they cannot be told apart. And that is where the main problem lies.

No, on one side we have an expert who has reviewed the written medical evidence from 1888 and given his professional opinions "in writing" not in conversation ! which should not be disregarded as you seem to want to do in favor of a book written and researched by 4 different people.

And on the other side we have you, who has read a book on dismemberment, and uses what he has read to interpret the medical reports to suit.

That not how it works, and the sooner you realize and accept that the better for all.

If you want to take this further I suggest you write to Rutty and send him the medical reports on the torsos and ask him to review them in the same way Dr Biggs has done and then publish his opinions in writing just as I have done with Dr Biggs and I would be interested in finding out just how far back in time his research was done in relation to dismemberment.


www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Fisherman]

Let's leave it that, Christer!

Yes, let's!