Torso Killer discussion from Millwood Thread

[Abby Normal]

Plus, neither Chapman's nor Eddowes' uteri had contained any foetuses for many years. Unlike Jackson's.

right. no evidence of botched abortions. but clear evidence, like chapman and Eddowes, of a desire to remove the reproductive organs of a female prostitute.

[Sam Flynn]

as opposed to the torso cases, where there was an obvious and undeniable attempt to hide the victims' bodies...

Did you mean "hide the victims' identities", perhaps?

[Debra A]

Debs and Joshua,

Found this in a gardening magazine.

GC & HTJ., Volume 18 1895

Great stuff! Thanks, Jerry.

[Abby Normal]

With having all but one of the Torso Victims unidentified (arguably), its difficult to be certain if they were or were not prostitutes. But that said, I think we can make some reasonable assumptions. First off they were all women from the ages of between 20 to 50 give or take, which does put them in the age range of most of the unfortunates at the time (and I understand that thats probably the age of most women alive at that time in history, when life expectancy was much shorter than it is today), even still, there were no children or seniors, which IMO, besides prostitutes, would be the next best (or easiest) targets when looking for victims.
2nd, they were all but one unidentified. Which does say something about the possible class that they came from. Just as it is today, when prostitutes would go missing, it generally didn't cause as big a stir, unfortunately. If someone had a wife go missing or a daughter in college or mom who takes care of her kids who ends up going missing, chances are it would cause a bigger stir than a missing unfortunate.

Basically what I'm saying is, generally, more people would be going out of their way too search for the stay home mom, or daughter or working wife who's home every night than would be looking for a prostitute who may be using an assumed name, who may have moved to the city to escape her past life for whatever reason. However fair or unfair that is, I think we can all pretty much agree that thats more likely true than not. So besides being the easiest victims to get alone, the unfortunates were also the least likely to cause a fuss when missing.
Plus the one victim that was positively ID'ed had been a known prostitute.
Given everything that was known, but even more telling what was UNknown, points to the women most likely being prostitutes. Obviously thats not 100%, and possibly 1 or even 2 weren't active prostitutes at the time they were killed. But if I were a betting man, I think I would feel comfortable going "all-in" on they being Unfortunates.

well said red
completely agree.

[Abby Normal]

The obvious difference, Abby, is that Chapman and Eddowes were left lying dead where they were murdered, as opposed to the torso cases, where there was an obvious and undeniable attempt to hide the victims' bodies...

And that, of course, is exactly what one would expect to find in 'domestic' murders cases, or in botched abortion cases, where the identity of the victim is an obvious clue to the perpetrator.

You have to look at the whole circumstances of the crime, as well as the age in which they were committed.

Hi rj
thanks for the response.

as opposed to the torso cases, where there was an obvious and undeniable attempt to hide the victims' bodies...

well we'll have to just disagree with that one because to me its obvious that in the torso cases there was an attempt to distribute, dump or display but not to hide. especially pinchin.

And that, of course, is exactly what one would expect to find in 'domestic' murders cases, or in botched abortion cases, where the identity of the victim is an obvious clue to the perpetrator.

and again, I understand, but in the torso cases, there is no evidence of botched abortion OR that these were domestic murder cases. None of the medicos at the time said they were botched abortions, nor is there ANY evidence for it.

You have to look at the whole circumstances of the crime, as well as the age in which they were committed

I have. which is why I believe they were a series of murders by the same man, as did the police, the doctors and other experts who were there at the time. and that more than likely, they were killed by the ripper as well.

[Sam Flynn]

The obvious difference, Abby, is that Chapman and Eddowes were left lying dead where they were murdered, as opposed to the torso cases, where there was an obvious and undeniable attempt to hide the victims' bodies...

Plus, neither Chapman's nor Eddowes' uteri had contained any foetuses for many years. Unlike Jackson's.

[rjpalmer]

Chapman and eddowes had there uterus missing also-is that also "highly suggestive of either an abortion case or a "pregnancy murder."? If anything its a similarity that points to a link with the ripper series.

The obvious difference, Abby, is that Chapman and Eddowes were left lying dead where they were murdered, as opposed to the torso cases, where there was an obvious and undeniable attempt to hide the victims' bodies...

And that, of course, is exactly what one would expect to find in 'domestic' murders cases, or in botched abortion cases, where the identity of the victim is an obvious clue to the perpetrator.

You have to look at the whole circumstances of the crime, as well as the age in which they were committed.

[rjpalmer]

Strictly speaking, RJ, the entire pelvis was missing, so it's unknown whether or not the uterus was itself removed, or damaged in any way.[/LEFT]

True enough; I should have been more specific, but the point I was making was in reference to Abby's remarkable claim that none of the other "torso" victims were pregnant, which is obviously pure speculation in the Whitehall cases, since the entire lower section of her body, including her uterus, was never found.

By the way, earlier, I wrongly referred to the 1873 "Battersea" case; what I should have stated was the Bedford-Square case from 1884. The possibility of a 'botched' abortion was specifically noted at inquest.

At the risk of stating the obvious, abortion was illegal. The consequences of performing one of these "illegal operations" could be dire. In 1875, a Liverpool chemist named Alfred Heap performed an abortion on a Manchester woman named Margaret M'Kivett. He punched her womb twice with a sharp instrument and she died.

Heap was duly convicted of murder, sentenced to death, and in less than five weeks was dangling from the prison gallows, executed.

I think that would send a pretty strong message to any other back-alley abortionists that it would be extremely prudent, if the 'patient' died, to dispose of the body in the river or a disused building site.

Which is why we see the medical men looking for signs of botched abortions in these cases. Not all the so-called 'torso' victims fall into this category, but 2 or 3 of them very well might.

I think many modern commentators are simply unaware of how common botched abortion cases were in the 19th Century, and how horrifically women who found themselves pregnant and unwed were treated by these quacks. My apologies for the gory details, but I found a case where a woman was tied to a bed stead, and a length of rope used to abort the child. The infant was beheaded and the woman bled to death. These crimes (for they were certainly considered crimes) could be every bit as violent and repulsive as a "Ripper" killing.

[jerryd]

And this one:

Journal of Horticulture and Practical Gardening, Volume 16

[jerryd]

Debs and Joshua,

Found this in a gardening magazine.

GC & HTJ., Volume 18 1895

[Joshua Rogan]

Thanks, JR, I had it in mind that the frame ground was something to do with smaller cold frames-the type gardeners use to cultivate seedlings before planting out. That would fit in with the nursery area you describe. I really need to find that plan again to be certain. Memory works in strange ways...if it works at all.

Ah yeah, cold frame, that's what I was thinking of. Which is actually a very small greenhouse. You can tell I'm not much of a gardener. But yes, sounds like it could well be the nursery area adjacent to the road. Shame my map doesn't show any more detail than the name in that spot.

[Debra A]

Thanks Debs. I may be wrong, but isn't "frame" just a posh word for a big greenhouse? If so, this probably points to the greenhouse area that was walled off, although it's well away from Albert Bridge Road, and has a fairly high looking wall on Streetview. Or beside the road between the stone yard and the west lodge is an area maked "nursery" which might also have been closed to the public. It would be possible to throw a parcel into this area from the road, but you'd have to be well into the park to dump anything over the greenhouse area wall.
i'll try and post a map if I can work out how to on this updated forum...

Thanks, JR, I had it in mind that the frame ground was something to do with smaller cold frames-the type gardeners use to cultivate seedlings before planting out. That would fit in with the nursery area you describe. I really need to find that plan again to be certain. Memory works in strange ways...if it works at all.

[Joshua Rogan]

[Abby Normal]

[QUOTE=rjpalmer;n702643]

Not necessarily so, Jeff.

It was impossible to know if the Whitehall victim was pregnant because her uterus was missing, which in itself is highly suggestive of either an abortion case or a "pregnancy murder."

Meanwhile, in the 1873 case, it was specifically theorized that the victim had had an abortion. Since Jackson was pregnant and cut to pieces, the prime suspect HAS to be the man who had impregnated her. Perhaps he was innocent, but he certainly would need to explain himself and furnish an alibi.

The point though, Jeff, isn't that all of the victims can be pinned on abortionists; the point is that if even if only one or two of them were, it raises the possibility that we are looking at unrelated murders and there was no "series" at all. Excuse me if I misunderstand, but you seem to be working from the premise that there IS a series, and then working backwards, dismiss possible motives based on the medical condition of the victims in the other cases.

By the way, in reference to those notes, what on earth does Hebbert mean by saying the victim had the "uterus of a virgin"? That's nonsensical, isn't it?

Hi rj

It was impossible to know if the Whitehall victim was pregnant because her uterus was missing, which in itself is highly suggestive of either an abortion case or a "pregnancy murder."

Chapman and eddowes had there uterus missing also-is that also "highly suggestive of either an abortion case or a "pregnancy murder."?

If anything its a similarity that points to a link with the ripper series.

Since Jackson was pregnant and cut to pieces, the prime suspect HAS to be the man who had impregnated her. Perhaps he was innocent, but he certainly would need to explain

he was and did-he had an alibi and was cleared.

the point is that if even if only one or two of them were, it raises the possibility that we are looking at unrelated murders and there was no "series" at all.

and then the same reasoning would apply-- that if one was a prostitute (Elizabeth Jackson) then the rest probably were. Especially since none others were ID'ed-because unfortunately people didn't care enough about them.

[Joshua Rogan]

Hi JR It was described as in the 'Frame Ground' about 200 yards from the river according to newspapers, in an area not accessible by the public. I did find (and subsequently lost) an old map with the fame ground marked on and it was in the general area of the stone ground marked on the 1872 Stanford's map IIRC. There were greenhouses here too and it wasn't open to the public, just as that area doesn't seem to be accessible now. I will try and find the map again.

Thanks Debs. I may be wrong, but isn't "frame" just a posh word for a big greenhouse? If so, this probably points to the greenhouse area that was walled off, although it's well away from Albert Bridge Road, and has a fairly high looking wall on Streetview. Or beside the road between the stone yard and the west lodge is an area maked "nursery" which might also have been closed to the public. It would be possible to throw a parcel into this area from the road, but you'd have to be well into the park to dump anything over the greenhouse area wall.
i'll try and post a map if I can work out how to on this updated forum...