torso maps

[Abby Normal]

You're operating at "Level 1" - or even "Level Zero" - similarities. Sorry, but my mind doesn't work at that level of superficiality.No, they weren't. For the same reasons as I've given already.
Superficial, Level 1 or Level Zero, similaritiesNo, I didn't. What's the big deal with post-mortem mutilation anyway? Easier for ANYONE to achieve after the victim is dead. And McKenzie's mutilations - whether postmortem, premortem or perimortem - were utter CRAP compared to the Ripper victims.No, I didn't "downplay" it. She was stabbed twice ON THE LEFT SIDE of her neck and the wound was carried forward. That's NOT THE SAME as a SLICE across the entire throat.I've studied statistics. Have you?If you're going to use quotes, please quote me precisely; I didn't say that. Anyhoo, I defy anyone to scratch - yes, SCRATCH - the lower abdomen through a layer of clothing.Psychobabble. I have a degree in psychology - do you?
ONE SMALL cut on the mons veneris. Sorry, but that's not the Ripper.

wow-new low from you Sam. Nothing but insults, arrogant boasting and zero responses to the actual points I raised.

"Level 1" - or even "Level Zero" - similarities.

whats this Sam? lol. Did you just make this up? Talk about psychobabble.

[Abby Normal]

Sorry, Abby, I misunderstood you.

Although I don’t think that my “detailed point by point” was in any way wrong or misleading (if that’s what you mean by “misguided”), I do think that I get what you wanted to say now: the urge can change from quite controllable to quite uncontrollable & back and the less controllable it gets, the less one cares about the risk involved. Is that what you’re saying?

It’s possible the urge of TM/the Ripper, if they are to be one and the same, suddenly increased. In my view, it has to mean that something important (or a combination of important things) happened in his life around the time between the Whitehall victim and Nichols that resulted in a much stronger urge or a much lower level of inhibition. Like I wrote before, until now I haven’t seen any explanations for it that convince me.

All the best,
Frank

Hi Frank

The way I see it something did happen-although I would go back to Tabram or even Millwood for the start. Mainly that his MO differed as a result of personal circumstances. As in maybe his chop shop wasn't available and or he was upping the thrill factor.

I do think that I get what you wanted to say now: the urge can change from quite controllable to quite uncontrollable & back and the less controllable it gets, the less one cares about the risk involved. Is that what you’re saying?

Basically yes-MY MO changed because my circumstances changed and at this point the urge was stronger than ever. Yes-Going out in the street to get what I wanted was more spontaneous, disorganized and risky. and it wasn't even that I cared less about the risk-the extra risk actually made it more thrilling!

[Abby Normal]

True, Gareth. McKenzie`s killer does seem to have used an ordinary pen knife, the sort carried by most men. But would THE Ripper have carried his normal long bladed knife at all times, if he still had it, 6 months after killing Kelly.
The knife really isn`t an issue, I think.

The Ripper targeted the carotid (the left one specifically), the rest of the throat cut, whether it circled the neck completely or was across the throat ear to ear, was overkill and mutilation. In this instance the double attempt at cutting straight through the carotid, down to the vertebra is very Ripper like.

exactly on all points Jon.

One also has to take into account that the throat cuts maybe weren't exactly the same because of different circs-perhaps the victims were struggling and or the ripper was drunk for example.

were talking about human beings and reality here-not robots going through some preconceived script.

[jerryd]

Hello jon

A short bladed knife (un-ripperlike in itself) can still be sliced across the throat and, regardless of the length of the blade, commencing an abdominal wound above the abdomen is a waste of time.

It wasn’t above the abdomen. Try Dr Phillips measurements on yourself. On me (I’m 6’0”) the wound begins just above the navel and extends to my groin.

Seven inches below right nipple commenced a wound seven inches long, in a downwards direction inclining first inwards then outwards. Deepest at upper part.

[Abby Normal]

You're operating at "Level 1" - or even "Level Zero" - similarities. Sorry, but my mind doesn't work at that level of superficiality.No, they weren't. For the same reasons as I've given already.
Superficial, Level 1 or Level Zero, similaritiesNo, I didn't. What's the big deal with post-mortem mutilation anyway? Easier for ANYONE to achieve after the victim is dead. And McKenzie's mutilations - whether postmortem, premortem or perimortem - were utter CRAP compared to the Ripper victims.No, I didn't "downplay" it. She was stabbed twice ON THE LEFT SIDE of her neck and the wound was carried forward. That's NOT THE SAME as a SLICE across the entire throat.I've studied statistics. Have you?If you're going to use quotes, please quote me precisely; I didn't say that. Anyhoo, I defy anyone to scratch - yes, SCRATCH - the lower abdomen through a layer of clothing.Psychobabble. I have a degree in psychology - do you?
ONE SMALL cut on the mons veneris. Sorry, but that's not the Ripper.

one more thing Sam

What's the big deal with post-mortem mutilation anyway? Easier for ANYONE to achieve after the victim is dead.

The point here it has nothing to do with how easy it is to inflict damage on a body post mortem-but that the urge is even there in the first place to do it! post mortem damage is rare in killers but i guessed you skipped that section in your psychology degree.

[Sam Flynn]

Fair point, but with a superficial cut from breast to navel, a few scratches and the lower abdomen comparatively unscathed, I don't see much of an urge in evidence, Abby. A half hearted and unconvincing copycat attempt, perhaps, but not the handiwork of the Ripper.

[jerryd]

Her lower abdomen is what he did target, Gareth. Due to the tight clothing, he could only get her dress up so far. Dr Phillips states only a third of her abdomen was exposed. Thats probably why the “major wound” began 7 inches below her right nipple. Which is commencing near navel height and travelng downward another 7 inches.

[Sam Flynn]

Her lower abdomen is what he did target, Gareth. Due to the tight clothing, he could only get her dress up so far. Dr Phillips states only a third of her abdomen was exposed. Thats probably why the “major wound” began 7 inches below her right nipple. Which is commencing near navel height and travelng downward another 7 inches.

I understood that the wound extended from the breast to the navel.

Be that as it may, it did not puncture the abdominal wall.

[Abby Normal]

Her lower abdomen is what he did target, Gareth. Due to the tight clothing, he could only get her dress up so far. Dr Phillips states only a third of her abdomen was exposed. Thats probably why the “major wound” began 7 inches below her right nipple. Which is commencing near navel height and travelng downward another 7 inches.

Bingo jerry
Now Im 6' 2" and my navel is about a foot lower than my nipple-no not in a straight line, since im a bit older and chubbier-more like a "great circle" lol...but I would imagine in a small, not fat woman 7 inches below the nipple would bring the start of the wound down to her navel or even below.

[Abby Normal]

I understood that the wound extended from the breast to the navel.

Be that as it may, it did not puncture the abdominal wall.

Sam
I believe you may have misunderstood the good doctor, and jerry

Seven inches below right nipple commenced a wound seven inches long, in a downwards direction inclining first inwards then outwards. Deepest at upper part.


The wound didnt START until 7 inches below the nipple and was 7 inches long from there "downwards". which make it probably starting around her navel and going lower seven inches. Obviously the wound was on the lower abdoman then, as you keep denying.

[Sam Flynn]

But it did not puncture the abdominal wall. There's no way on God's earth that the (by then very) experienced Ripper would have failed to do so, had that been his intention. Ditto with the Pinchin Street torso, to bring us back into alignment with the subject of this thread. Perhaps Mr Pinchin did for Alice McKenzie, but I just don't see the Ripper at work in either case.

[jerryd]

I understood that the wound extended from the breast to the navel.

Be that as it may, it did not puncture the abdominal wall.

I see the killer of Clay Pipe trying to inflict as much damage in the time alotted. Time was scarce in this case. With a shorter knife I believe he risked getting more blood and guts on his hands. He chose to avoid the risk in this case but still inflicted about 15 wounds on her lower abdomen. Kind of like the “extras” on Eddowes. i.e nicked eyelids

[Sam Flynn]

I see the killer of Clay Pipe trying to inflict as much damage in the time alotted. Time was scarce in this case. With a shorter knife I believe he risked getting more blood and guts on his hands. He chose to avoid the risk in this case but still inflicted about 15 wounds on her lower abdomen.

Where do we hear about the 15 wounds, and what form did they take?

Might I please suggest we take this to a McKenzie thread? I feel genuine angst when such detail is focused on one case on a board dedicated to another topic. Some good stuff usually gets lost in the noise, which is a real pity. Far better to keep things properly "filed" - in this case, under "M for McKenzie".

Can't help it, sorry... I must been a frustrated librarian in a past life!

[Abby Normal]

But it did not puncture the abdominal wall. There's no way on God's earth that the (by then very) experienced Ripper would have failed to do so, had that been his intention. Ditto with the Pinchin Street torso, to bring us back into alignment with the subject of this thread. Perhaps Mr Pinchin did for Alice McKenzie, but I just don't see the Ripper at work in either case.

Hi Sam
Ok, so I believe your moving on from your mistake that Alice wounds weren't in the lower abdomen. OK fine-would be nice to see you admit it once in a while.

But any way...

But it did not puncture the abdominal wall. There's no way on God's earth that the (by then very) experienced Ripper would have failed to do so, had that been his intention. Ditto with the Pinchin Street torso, to bring us back into alignment with the subject of this thread.

totally see what your saying here and in a way I agree. you would think he would be gashing open pinchin and Alice and taking internal organs.


I cant really explain it other than perhaps with Pinchin it wasn't his intention to do so (maybe he just wanted external limbs) and with Alice maybe drunk and or interrupted.


either way it does show an inclination to slice at the abdomen with a knife like the ripper.

But you make a fair point, absolutely.

[jerryd]

Where do we hear about the 15 wounds, and what form did they take?

Might I please suggest we take this to a McKenzie thread? I feel genuine angst when such detail is focused on one case on a board dedicated to another topic. Some good stuff usually gets lost in the noise, which is a real pity. Far better to keep things properly "filed" - in this case, under "M for McKenzie".

Can't help it, sorry... I must been a frustrated librarian in a past life!

Gareth,

I agree the McKenzie stuff is better suited on a specific thread. There are plenty out there already. Also, I’ve always cautioned myself against making the librarian angry. Especially a frustrated one!!

To answer your question, the information on the “wounds” are in the surviving records of the Metropolitan Police. MEPO 3/140, ff263-71. They were mostly superficial wounds to the lower abdomen. 7 commencing toward the navel from the major wound make 8 and 7 more lower down. There were also 5 excoriating wounds on the pubis from pulling up the tight clothing which I didn’t include in the count. In addition there were the fingernail marks on the abdomen.