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JtR failed amputation. Torso killer was successful.

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  • JtR failed amputation. Torso killer was successful.

    Seems this could be a very big strike against JtR being the Torso killer(s).

    Kelly's amputated breasts by circular incisions demonstrate that JtR tried to amputate body parts. Her right arm was slightly abducted. Also, there are knife knotches found more than once on their vertebrates. Many of JtR's victim's heads are almost severed from their body.

    Even if we debate if he was amputating, there is evidence he tried to do something, stopped and didn't follow through, especially with Kelly.

    It seems these points jeopardize both attempts to give JtR some medical training and to associate him with the Torso murderer, who seems to have no problem with severing body parts and amputating them. For JtR, this is a problem and time limits can't be a factor, given we know with Kelly, he had lots of uninterrupted time to carry out his fantasies to the full.
    Bona fide canonical and then some.

  • #2
    Good points, although I should point out that "abducted" was being used in a technical sense. It simply meant that the arm was lying at a slight angle to the torso, as opposed to being flush with the side. If you place your arms at your sides and then lift them away, you are "abducting" them.
    Kind regards, Sam Flynn

    "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

    Comment


    • #3
      Very good points, Batman. Particularly, as regards the Kelly case, where he would have had time to perform the decapitation ritual etc.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Batman View Post
        Seems this could be a very big strike against JtR being the Torso killer(s).

        Kelly's amputated breasts by circular incisions demonstrate that JtR tried to amputate body parts. Her right arm was slightly abducted. Also, there are knife knotches found more than once on their vertebrates. Many of JtR's victim's heads are almost severed from their body.

        Even if we debate if he was amputating, there is evidence he tried to do something, stopped and didn't follow through, especially with Kelly.

        It seems these points jeopardize both attempts to give JtR some medical training and to associate him with the Torso murderer, who seems to have no problem with severing body parts and amputating them. For JtR, this is a problem and time limits can't be a factor, given we know with Kelly, he had lots of uninterrupted time to carry out his fantasies to the full.
        Hi Batman
        Nahhh. . Torsoman seemed to be keeping parts-external as well as internal parts.

        The ripper (if he was also torsoman)couldn't very well take away a human head or leg or arm away from one of his victims very easily.

        so he just went with internal parts he wanted for the ripper kills.
        "Is all that we see or seem
        but a dream within a dream?"

        -Edgar Allan Poe


        "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
        quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

        -Frederick G. Abberline

        Comment


        • #5
          I don´t think he wanted to decapitate the Ripper victims at all, least of all Kelly. I think it was of the utmost importance to him that her head was in place.

          He cut savagely and all the way down to the bone. How could the vertebrae NOT be nicked, considering this?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
            Hi Batman
            Nahhh. . Torsoman seemed to be keeping parts-external as well as internal parts.
            I don't see any evidence that the torso murderer(s) was especially interested in internal body parts.
            Kind regards, Sam Flynn

            "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
              I don´t think he wanted to decapitate the Ripper victims at all, least of all Kelly. I think it was of the utmost importance to him that her head was in place
              A practised dismemberer could have cut off her head and left it behind, posed in an appropriately macabre tableau. Along with other severed limbs, if the fancy took him.
              Kind regards, Sam Flynn

              "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                I don't see any evidence that the torso murderer(s) was especially interested in internal body parts.
                all the torso victims had post mortem mutilation above and beyond what was needed for dismemberment-and internal organs were missing.
                "Is all that we see or seem
                but a dream within a dream?"

                -Edgar Allan Poe


                "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                -Frederick G. Abberline

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
                  I don´t think he wanted to decapitate the Ripper victims at all, least of all Kelly. I think it was of the utmost importance to him that her head was in place.

                  He cut savagely and all the way down to the bone. How could the vertebrae NOT be nicked, considering this?
                  Hi fish

                  I don´t think he wanted to decapitate the Ripper victims at all, least of all Kelly. I think it was of the utmost importance to him that her head was in place.

                  why pray tell?
                  "Is all that we see or seem
                  but a dream within a dream?"

                  -Edgar Allan Poe


                  "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                  quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                  -Frederick G. Abberline

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                    I don't see any evidence that the torso murderer(s) was especially interested in internal body parts.
                    That would equate how you don´t think that taking out a heart (or perhaps two) and taking out a uterus amounts to any special interest in taking out internal body parts, Gareth.

                    Then again, you have a few things going for you, and I actually agree to an extent - although we do have evidence that he took out internal body parts, it seems this could not have been an ultimate aim for him. If it was, then why did not all the victims suffer eviscerations?

                    My suggestion would be because organ excising was but one of many different things he could do, and that all of these things would be satisfactory to him. Compare, if you will, how Eddowes and Kelly had their faces cut (no organ excising there) and how flesh was cut away from the thighs of Kelly (no organ excising there), how Eddowes had her nose cut off (no organ excising there) and so on.

                    It was not only about organ excising for the torso killer - but organ excising was part of his agenda.

                    Similarly, organ excising was part of the Rippers agenda too - but it was NOT all he did to his victims.

                    I just watched a Youtube video with the Swedish criminologist Leif G W Persson commenting on the Ripper murders. He said that the kind of murders he perpetrated, with organ excising and very extensive cutting, is something that is so rare that there are not many cases around in the criminological history of the world.
                    Strange then, is it not, that one of the very, very few examples should have coexisted with the Ripper, same city, same time...?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      The muscular structures appeared as though an attempt had made to separate the bones of the neck.

                      Chapman examination report.
                      Bona fide canonical and then some.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                        Hi fish




                        why pray tell?
                        Because if it was not in place,I don´t think the killer would have produced what he set out to do, Abby. It would be as if Michelangelo carved his Pietá with the left arms missing from Maria and Jesus.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
                          I don´t think he wanted to decapitate the Ripper victims at all, least of all Kelly. I think it was of the utmost importance to him that her head was in place.
                          May i ask why Fish
                          Sorry i see the question has been asked.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Batman View Post
                            The muscular structures appeared as though an attempt had made to separate the bones of the neck.

                            Chapman examination report.
                            Yes, if you decapitate with a knife, you will cut into the muscular structures. Then again, if you cut a neck very deeply and forcefully, you may end up with the blade cutting into the muscular structures.

                            This is why there is no agreement that there must have been an effort on the killer´s behalf to decapitate - it looks the same, and ergo it leaves both possibilities open.

                            If this was not so, we would know that there was an attempt to decapitate. We don´t, though.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Darryl Kenyon View Post
                              May i ask why Fish
                              Sorry i see the question has been asked.
                              Our posts crossed, and so I have given an answer. I could expand on it, but I´m afraid I won´t.

                              Comment

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