Torso Murders

[Trevor Marriott]

I didn't say anything was 'withheld', I said how do you know that all the evidence that went towards a verdict of wilful murder was reported in the press? Who was Fred then? His name is mentioned but there is nothing further said about him, My point is that we are not always privy to the full inquest blow by blow in the press.

If there had been anything material and of importance there would have been mention of it, and the coroner would not have suggested the jury return a verdict of wilful murder. Any damming evidence to point to murder they would have been able to arrive at their own verdict without the need to be prompted by the coroner.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Debra A]

Thank you for the sermon, it is duly noted, and I did refer to your dissertation and quite rightly so as what you wrote is totally relevant to the matter being discussed on this thread.

As to Battersea Park area being the murder location it is not unreasonable to believe that was the case given her haunts and Battersea park being nearby and with its bad reputation and where some of the body parts were fished out of the thames.

It was you who quoted Macgnahten in the first instance. In this case I never said he was right or wrong, but you seem to stand by him in your dissertation so how can I argue against the worlds authority on the thames torsos !

Now, perhaps you would care to kindly address the points I raised. If not I am sure other members of your fan club will rush to your aid.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I have answered every single point. I always do and am quite capable of doing so myself. I'm still waiting for you to answer at least a dozen of my questions though that you artfully dodged. One of those was why you imagine just a murderer would have problems disposing of the body but not an abortionist or an anatomist?

I believe that Macnaghten was actually talking about the linen square found in the back passage but had remembered wrongly. The only other wrapping that had connection to an occupation was a 'costermonger's pocket' all the other wrapping was Elizabeth's own clothing, so he couldn't have meant that as it isn't related to students. We all know he was insinuating an abortion attempt and if you could read and comprehend as well as most of the other posters on here you will see that I also suggested the jury may have found a verdict of wilful murder because they might have disagreed with Bond's evidence that no abortion had been performed and the foetus removed after death. Death caused by abortion practices also brought in a 'wilful murder' verdict. But you are so intent on trying to oppose what I say all the time you just jump in without reading what's being said.

[John Wheat]

And there you go again with your patronising comments. If I posted what I really thought about you I would be banned instantly! instead I have more respect and the good grace to realise that people are entitled to their own opinion when basing their conclusions on facts.

To Debra A

You're not the only one. Some don't base their conclusions on facts they just spout b.s.

Cheers John

[John Wheat]

This thread is about The Torso Murders it is not meant to be about The Torso Abortionists or whatever crazy theory. I kindly suggest those that want to argue that there wasn't a Torso Killer **** off and start there own thread.

[Debra A]

To Debra A

You're not the only one. Some don't base their conclusions on facts they just spout b.s.

Cheers John

That's definitely true, John!
It's all well and good saying there's no evidence for a murder but that doesn't automatically mean that another scenario is just as likely. When there isn't enough evidence to convict someone for a crime that doesn't mean that person isn't guilty does it?

[Fisherman]

That's definitely true, John!
It's all well and good saying there's no evidence for a murder but that doesn't automatically mean that another scenario is just as likely. When there isn't enough evidence to convict someone for a crime that doesn't mean that person isn't guilty does it?

If it´s a murder case, it is normally a case of the prosecution not being able to conclusively prove murder - turning it from murder to mystery... Like, for example, the O J Simpson mystery.

[Trevor Marriott]

To Debra A

You're not the only one. Some don't base their conclusions on facts they just spout b.s.

Cheers John

and others are prepared to listen to those who think they know what they are talking about

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[John Wheat]

I agree Debra and Fisherman. If a murder can't be proven beyond doubt there is still a guilty party. As for The Torso Murders there is no other sensible reason. I note those that don't believe in a Torso Killer haven't come up with a remotely plausible alternative.

Cheers John

[Trevor Marriott]

I agree Debra and Fisherman. If a murder can't be proven beyond doubt there is still a guilty party. As for The Torso Murders there is no other sensible reason. I note those that don't believe in a Torso Killer haven't come up with a remotely plausible alternative.

Cheers John

Yes but that guilty party may be guilty of another criminal offence other than murder.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Abby Normal]

Trevor, you are telling me to consider things that originated with me! I was the first person to find that Elizabeth Jackson had a piece of linen in her back passage! It was me that found and posted that this was a technique used by abortionists. I was telling the story of Elizabeth's case, therefore I included the progression made by the police and doctors in their investigations. No one said Elizabeth was definitely killed near Battersea Park, it was an idea suggested by someone. When will you realise that research involves reading and weighing up all sources available and giving other people the chance to do the same? I post when I can see that you are deliberately making things up to suit your own agenda,
Whatever problems you envisage a person had with dumping the body that would also apply in any scenario. Whoever dismembered Elizabeth, had the same risk in dumping the body parts!! Being an abortionist dumping body parts does not make you invisible!

Again, I see you like to quote Macnaghten when it suits yet when he disagrees you dismiss him as 'unreliable.'

And there you go again with your patronising comments. If I posted what I really thought about you I would be banned instantly! instead I have more respect and the good grace to realise that people are entitled to their own opinion when basing their conclusions on facts.

Debra
Why do you waste your time? I couldn't even finish reading his post after I read this howler :"Looking at that scenario then, why would a killer kill her in a park and then cut up the body.Why not simply leave it in the park? The longer he would have spent with the victims body the more risk of detection."

Uhm... Because he didnt kill her in the park. Maybe because he took her back to his place to kill her?????

Wow. Master detective that one.

[Abby Normal]

Thanks Dusty and Joshua. The descriptions are all more or less the same, there's no major discrepancy is there? I mention him looking like a navvy in my casebook dissertation. There would have been plenty of work in the area and I think it was Jerry who asked what we know about the men working in the Whitehall basement vault. If a rowing hat was similar to the one in the picture posted by Jerry, then a navvies hat is very similar in general, a soft cloth hat with a peak:

http://www.railwayarchive.org.uk/sto...&maxp=8&pnum=1

He certainly doesn't sound like the type of man you'd expect to be involved in the back street abortion trade does he?

No he doesn't. He sounds like the peaked cap man seen with victims the night of the double event.

[Debra A]

If there had been anything material and of importance there would have been mention of it, and the coroner would not have suggested the jury return a verdict of wilful murder. Any damming evidence to point to murder they would have been able to arrive at their own verdict without the need to be prompted by the coroner.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Prompted by the coroner in what way? The coroner suggested that some abortionists had so much skill nowadays that didn't always leave signs of instrument use that Dr Bond looked for but couldn't find.

I recall now an old conversation on this where I asked the source for you saying that the Coroner had wrongly directed the jury in their verdict and you said my dissertation. I then checked back and admitted, on that thread, that I had mis-used the term 'directed' in the dissertation, not knowing at the time 'directing' had the definite legal connotations you said it did.
There was no inquest report source saying the Coroner 'directed' the jury, I simply meant that the Coroner summarised the evidence, mentioning the thing about abortionists too, but I chose the wrong word to use in my dissertation.
Why are you still going on about the 'direction' now then? You were on that thread and commented on what I said. I can post the link if needs be. That's what happens with you-we all end up going around in circles even when definite things have been established.

[Debra A]

Debra
Why do you waste your time? I couldn't even finish reading his post after I read this howler :"Looking at that scenario then, why would a killer kill her in a park and then cut up the body.Why not simply leave it in the park? The longer he would have spent with the victims body the more risk of detection."

Uhm... Because he didnt kill her in the park. Maybe because he took her back to his place to kill her?????

Wow. Master detective that one.

Mind boggling isn't it? I'm off now, honest-got a fan club meet to arrange.

[Debra A]

No he doesn't. He sounds like the peaked cap man seen with victims the night of the double event.

He was the abortionists helper, silly. He stood on street corners waiting to accost miserable looking pregnant women to see if they wanted to see his mate Fred for a hobstetrick stomach removal.

[Abby Normal]

He was the abortionists helper, silly. He stood on street corners waiting to accost miserable looking pregnant women to see if they wanted to see his mate Fred for a hobstetrick stomach removal.

Now that's funny