Did JtR change his MO after murdering Martha Tabram

[Harry D]

There is simply no way of telling. On balance of the similarities, the rarity of murder at the time, some of the evidence from the time and what we now know about serial murder today has to put the probability that Martha was a victim pretty high up on the scale. I think the 'legend of the canonical five' has had a massive impact on our collective thinking, albeit unconsciously. It has just always been accepted which I think is problematic and something that needs to be address in MHO.

That's true to a certain extent, although personally I do not take those five victims as gospel truth. There's a case to be made for Alice McKenzie, perhaps even Frances Coles, although she was isolated from the rest. Not to mention those who consider the Thames Torso series among the killer's portfolio, a position that I'm sympathetic to.

While Tabram's proximity to Nichols strengths the argument for her inclusion, I also think it harms it at the same time. As Varqm was getting at, in 24 days the same killer transitioned from frenzied/paraphiliac stabbing to methodical throat-slashing and abdominal cutting. The killer didn't need to stab Tabram 39 times to make sure she was dead, that kind of overkill comes from either a bloody frenzy or because he enjoyed it.

[FISHY1118]

Harry D , you seem to be changing your Avitar more than i change my socks

[Losmandris]

What stood out to me is that Napper still engaged in stabbing the internal organs of his victim. We don't see this paraphilia in any of the canonical five murders, but we're asked to accept this is the same killer who stabbed Tabram 39 times? Ripper by name, Ripper by nature.

There is simply no way of telling. On balance of the similarities, the rarity of murder at the time, some of the evidence from the time and what we now know about serial murder today has to put the probability that Martha was a victim pretty high up on the scale. I think the 'legend of the canonical five' has had a massive impact on our collective thinking, albeit unconsciously. It has just always been accepted which I think is problematic and something that needs to be address in MHO.

[Harry D]

In the case of Robert Napper on the 15 July 1992 on Wimbledon Common , Napper stabbed Rachel Nickel 49 times. Sixteen months later he killed Samantha Bisset. Samantha's body had been cut open from her chest to her genitals. Her rib cage had been pulled back to expose her internal organs, and each one had been stabbed. Napper attempted to slice off her leg and he took a piece of Samantha's abdomen as a trophy.

Sixteen months is obviously a lot longer than twenty odd days. But the change from one murder to the other, [ comparable in my book ], to Martha and Polly, then through to Annie [ trophy taking ], then Mary [ slicing of the leg ] . Why couldn't Jack be similar in the MO sense ?

Regards Darryl

What stood out to me is that Napper still engaged in stabbing the internal organs of his victim. We don't see this paraphilia in any of the canonical five murders, but we're asked to accept this is the same killer who stabbed Tabram 39 times? Ripper by name, Ripper by nature.

[Darryl Kenyon]

In the case of Robert Napper on the 15 July 1992 on Wimbledon Common , Napper stabbed Rachel Nickel 49 times. Sixteen months later he killed Samantha Bisset. Samantha's body had been cut open from her chest to her genitals. Her rib cage had been pulled back to expose her internal organs, and each one had been stabbed. Napper attempted to slice off her leg and he took a piece of Samantha's abdomen as a trophy.

Sixteen months is obviously a lot longer than twenty odd days. But the change from one murder to the other, [ comparable in my book ], to Martha and Polly, then through to Annie [ trophy taking ], then Mary [ slicing of the leg ] . Why couldn't Jack be similar in the MO sense ?

Regards Darryl

[Varqm]

Not sure I understand 'good at it'? He was able to subdue Mary and cut her throat, so more like he was able to do it. There could have been some attempts in the intervening period. This could have been his first success using the new M.O.

What I mean is If JTR was new, had the urge to kill and just went for it, with not much pre-conceived idea on how to kill instantly, stabbing Tabram many times,he then change to throat-cutting in 24 days with Nichols and was sort of good at it as he followed it 8 days later with Chapman ,then Sept 30 2 victims.

It's is also possible he went for Tabram's heart first,almost killing her ,and went for a frenzy and rage.So he had a good idea how to kill,then switch to throat-cutting.

[Losmandris]

In 24 days,Nichols, he changed and was good at it?Although the cuts to the stomach of Nichols seems to me like he was exploring how to open the abdomen,despite being disturbed after.

Not sure I understand 'good at it'? He was able to subdue Mary and cut her throat, so more like he was able to do it. There could have been some attempts in the intervening period. This could have been his first success using the new M.O.

[Harry D]

In 24 days,Nichols, he changed and was good at it?Although the cuts to the stomach of Nichols seems to me like he was exploring how to open the abdomen,despite being disturbed after.

I agree. This idea that the Ripper had a eureka moment after Tabram's murder and become a clinical throat-cutter doesn't sit well with me. Now, had you bunged Alice McKenzie in-between the two, that might show a natural progression.

[Varqm]

Let's not forget it was a Bank Holiday when Tabram was murdered. There may have been a lot of non-locals slumming it for the festivities, like the soldiers on leave who were questioned. Tabram may have crossed paths with an angry drunk who done her in. If there's going to be a "motiveless" crime against a woman, the majority of time it will be against a prostitute. If it wasn't a local, that could explain why we didn't see this type of frenzied attack happen again. But like I said, we can't handwave the fact that Nichols was murdered by a knife three weeks later, both had their skirts raised, and there was no sign of sexual intercourse in either murder. The George Yard Buildings were also bang in the middle of the geoprofile of the other murders.

I agree,lots of possible people that could have been the killer, a soldier being one of them.Might have been JTR though.Its possible he went for the heart first ,just about killing her,and went for a frenzy.

[Varqm]

I think this was the reason for the thread in the first place. I often wonder if MT was the killers first ever murder victim. As a complete novice he assumes the best way/or certainly a way to dispatch someone is to stab them a couple of times. Maybe ?e partially strangles MT? (little anecdotal I know but I think the hallmarks are potentially there). And then stabs her a couple of times thinking it will kill her, this does not work so he goes into a frenzy until she finally lies still.

As such he changes his M.O for the next victim. Ensuring they are strangled until fully unconscious and then cuts the throat.

To me this makes sense. Again especially in light of all the contemporary evidence relating to serial killers.

In 24 days,Nichols, he changed and was good at it?Although the cuts to the stomach of Nichols seems to me like he was exploring how to open the abdomen,despite being disturbed after.

[Varqm]

To recap:

It is being argued that the WM would have displayed the same M.O. and signature with all of his victims, and therefore anything outside of the C5 must be discounted.

I'm stating that the aforementioned argument is not supported by the empirical data.

It can't be proven or otherwise in relation to the WM because he wasn't apprehended but that's not the point.

Yeah. I agree.Mode if killing could change.

[Harry D]

During the 39 stabs when was the strike to the heart which dealt the fatal stab.If it was the first or two then the killer knew how to kill.If not it seems like the killer of Tabram did not know how to kill.Impossible to prove. 24 days later Nichols when it seems like JTR knew how to kill
I'm just using the location of the murder along Commercial Road > Street and the date of the Tabram murder, around the first week of the month or end of like the rest of C5, as well as being a seemingly motiveless crime to include her as JTR's victim .Bit iffy.

Let's not forget it was a Bank Holiday when Tabram was murdered. There may have been a lot of non-locals slumming it for the festivities, like the soldiers on leave who were questioned. Tabram may have crossed paths with an angry drunk who done her in. If there's going to be a "motiveless" crime against a woman, the majority of time it will be against a prostitute. If it wasn't a local, that could explain why we didn't see this type of frenzied attack happen again. But like I said, we can't handwave the fact that Nichols was murdered by a knife three weeks later, both had their skirts raised, and there was no sign of sexual intercourse in either murder. The George Yard Buildings were also bang in the middle of the geoprofile of the other murders.

[Ms Diddles]

I think this was the reason for the thread in the first place. I often wonder if MT was the killers first ever murder victim. As a complete novice he assumes the best way/or certainly a way to dispatch someone is to stab them a couple of times. Maybe ?e partially strangles MT? (little anecdotal I know but I think the hallmarks are potentially there). And then stabs her a couple of times thinking it will kill her, this does not work so he goes into a frenzy until she finally lies still.

As such he changes his M.O for the next victim. Ensuring they are strangled until fully unconscious and then cuts the throat.

To me this makes sense. Again especially in light of all the contemporary evidence relating to serial killers.

Yeah, possibly it was him refining his art, so to speak.

One thing that always strikes me about Martha's murder is the sheer overkill of the thirty nine stab wounds.

Try punching a pillow or something similar thirty nine times, and you'll see what I mean.

It takes time and energy.

(Probably best do that when there's nobody around, or you're going to look pretty weird!!).

I'd say that something really angered him there (of course that could simply be frustration that Martha wasn't simply expiring quickly despite his efforts).

[Losmandris]

During the 39 stabs when was the strike to the heart which dealt the fatal stab.If it was the first or two then the killer knew how to kill.If not it seems like the killer of Tabram did not know how to kill.Impossible to prove. 24 days later Nichols when it seems like JTR knew how to kill
I'm just using the location of the murder along Commercial Road > Street and the date of the Tabram murder, around the first week of the month or end of like the rest of C5, as well as being a seemingly motiveless crime to include her as JTR's victim .Bit iffy.

I think this was the reason for the thread in the first place. I often wonder if MT was the killers first ever murder victim. As a complete novice he assumes the best way/or certainly a way to dispatch someone is to stab them a couple of times. Maybe ?e partially strangles MT? (little anecdotal I know but I think the hallmarks are potentially there). And then stabs her a couple of times thinking it will kill her, this does not work so he goes into a frenzy until she finally lies still.

As such he changes his M.O for the next victim. Ensuring they are strangled until fully unconscious and then cuts the throat.

To me this makes sense. Again especially in light of all the contemporary evidence relating to serial killers.

[Fleetwood Mac]

It is stated in my post, the killing as part of MO, as different from signature.The mode of killing could change.
But how do you prove it,the intention.Im saying it's possible Tabram's killer did not know how to kill.Tnis cannot be proven or there is no basis to be had,that's why it's for me useless to pursue.
As in the post I am including Tabram but by location\route and date only.
The victims being alone was an understandable circumstance for any killer, normal, not unique, unless a killer kills in front of people.

To recap:

It is being argued that the WM would have displayed the same M.O. and signature with all of his victims, and therefore anything outside of the C5 must be discounted.

I'm stating that the aforementioned argument is not supported by the empirical data.

It can't be proven or otherwise in relation to the WM because he wasn't apprehended but that's not the point.