Martha Tabram - JTR Catalyst

[Carrotty Nell]

I don't know whether this idea has been mooted before.

Was Martha the first victim of the inchoate JTR before be developed his mature 'technique'? Or was she the victim of someone else entirely? These questions have been going around for years and opinion among the Ripperologist community seems roughly divided 50-50.

What if Martha was not a victim of our man? But there being no connection between such unusually violent knife murders seems a huge coincidence. It was only three weeks before Nichols' murder and only a few streets away.

What if Martha was JTR's catalyst? Say he had some connection with the dead woman or the crime? Perhaps he lived very close to George Yard and was a minor witness? Perhaps he was one of Martha's regular customers? Perhaps he was just overwhelmed by the public panic and shock which resulted from the George Yard murder?

Could our man have been fantacising about Martha's murder and was this his deadly catalyst?

[Ayailla]

This in an interesting idea. So, you're presenting the possibility that Jack the Ripper was a copycat killer of whoever killed Martha Tabram?

[Carrotty Nell]

Perhaps not 'copycat' as such because the MO was so divergent.

But 'inspired' by Martha's killing. Perhaps he had been fantacising about Martha and her brutal murder for the three intervening weeks, working up his own frenzied bloodlust to kill his first victim.

[woocus]

Martha - JTR first victim

I don't know whether this idea has been mooted before.

Was Martha the first victim of the inchoate JTR before be developed his mature 'technique'? Or was she the victim of someone else entirely? These questions have been going around for years and opinion among the Ripperologist community seems roughly divided 50-50.

What if Martha was not a victim of our man? But there being no connection between such unusually violent knife murders seems a huge coincidence. It was only three weeks before Nichols' murder and only a few streets away.

What if Martha was JTR's catalyst? Say he had some connection with the dead woman or the crime? Perhaps he lived very close to George Yard and was a minor witness? Perhaps he was one of Martha's regular customers? Perhaps he was just overwhelmed by the public panic and shock which resulted from the George Yard murder?

Could our man have been fantacising about Martha's murder and was this his deadly catalyst?

It's my considered opinion that Martha was definitely JTR's first victim, that JTR went on to murder at least the next three victims, and that JTR was definitely two persons, and that there was a very close connection to Martha. See "Martha's sons"in this forum.

[kensei]

I think Martha was definitely a victim of the Ripper, but not his first attack, just his first kill. (Millwood and Wilson considered.) I picture Jack walking past George Yard Buildings more or less minding his own business, not on the hunt for a victim specifically but with knife or knives on him and with the thought always in the back of his mind, and then hearing the drunken Martha call out to him as he passed by. She was sitting there resting after having finished with her soldier, her head buzzing too much for her to make her way without staggering, and maybe called out something like "Hey Guvnor, fancy some company?" Which stopped Jack in his tracks, thinking "Mmmmm, another whore. I am getting really tired of this." And then his rage took over. I don't think I'd call her a catalyst, I just think Jack turning killer was inevitable and she just happened to be the first.

[lynn cates]

hard sell

Hello Nell.

"Perhaps he had been fantacising about Martha and her brutal murder for the three intervening weeks, working up his own frenzied blood lust to kill his first victim."

So, are you suggesting two murderers with a similar MO, victimology, and in the same area and time? Good luck with that one.

Cheers.
LC

[Supe]

Lynn,

So, are you suggesting two murderers with a similar MO, victimology, and in the same area and time?

Why not? As it is, the murderer of Polly Nichols had a professional, patterned method of killing. Tabram's murderer(s) did not. I find it much more difficult to posit that the murderer learned the technique used on Nichols in three weeks than that Martha and Polly met their fates at the hands of two different people.

Don.

[Wickerman]

Lynn,

So, are you suggesting two murderers with a similar MO, victimology, and in the same area and time?

Why not? As it is, the murderer of Polly Nichols had a professional, patterned method of killing. Tabram's murderer(s) did not. I find it much more difficult to posit that the murderer learned the technique used on Nichols in three weeks than that Martha and Polly met their fates at the hands of two different people.

Don.

I also find it tough to accept one killer throughout the entire range of Whitechapel murders, everyone likely agrees on that.
Its where to draw the line that the controversy appears, and when theories are proposed which divide up the C5, this is likely to cause real division, being both the hardest to substantiate, and the hardest to accept.

Tabram could quite easily have been the result of a soldiers drunken night out, but also, the result of an infuriated client. Not necessarily the same killer as Nichols, but then we cannot rule that out either.

Really, Martha Tabram could be attributable to anyone.

Regards, Jon S.

[Phil H]

I see a numer of possibilities involved with Tabram that COULD (by no means certainly did) influence "Jack".

A) Tabram was killed by the same group who attacked Emma Smith, and the future "Jack" was a member of that group. He subsequently went solo.

B) Jack saw or read about the Tabram murder and became obsessed.Hos own tastes were for more than stabbing".

C) The killer of Tabram was "Jack" honing his MO and may be related to other earlier non0fatal attacks.

Personally though, I feel that Tabram was a stand-alone case. She was probably killed by two soldiers who believed she had diddled them, and they came back for revenge. I see little connection with the way in which Nichols was murdered, the location or the weapon. But that is NOT to say "Jack" hadn't killed before, or tried to.

I am thus open to various possibilities.

Phil

[bolo]

Hello Phil,

I see a numer of possibilities involved with Tabram that COULD (by no means certainly did) influence "Jack".

A) Tabram was killed by the same group who attacked Emma Smith, and the future "Jack" was a member of that group. He subsequently went solo.

this is something I've pondered on for some years as well. Our Jack may have been a member of said group and was the one who always went one or several steps further. Eventually, the group split up because the other two didn't want to put up with Jack's mood swings and overboarding brutality anymore, so he went solo as you said and scored his first kill in George Yard. Then he took it one step further with Polly.

Of course this scenario has several problems, like the change in MO over only three weeks as Lynn already mentioned. Still, I think it could be worth it to keep at it and also take a fresh new look at the East End gangland while we're at it.

Regards,

Boris

[Phil H]

I don't think - if the scenario you outline is remotely true (which frankly, I doubt) that the other two involved in the attack on Emma, ever knew their mate was JtR. (Though they might have suspected.)

If they had known, the pressure to tell someone later in the year would surely have been huge.

Phil

[bolo]

I don't think - if the scenario you outline is remotely true (which frankly, I doubt) that the other two involved in the attack on Emma, ever knew their mate was JtR. (Though they might have suspected.)

If they had known, the pressure to tell someone later in the year would surely have been huge.

Phil

The other two may have developed certain suspicions after Polly's death but despite the pressure that rested on their shoulders, they probably wouldn't have given up their former mate to the police or even casually talked about him to people of their own class or else they would have been in trouble as well. From what I've read about Victorian crime and criminals in Mayhew, Booth and on certain web resources (victorianlondon.org, etc.), the see no evil, speak no evil attitude was very strong in hot spots like the London East End.

Regards,

Boris

[lynn cates]

ironic

Hello Don. Thanks.

I was, of course, being ironic. That is PRECISELY my take and I am quite content with more than one killer.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Liz

Hello Jon.

"Really, Martha Tabram could be attributable to anyone."

What of Liz?

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Hello all,

Since Martha is not killed in a manner consistent with the next 2 unsolved murders...(for that matter neither are the following 3 ), one might imagine that her murder was inspiration for someone barely able to control their desire to kill and mutilate.

It gave a mutilator some ideas that became too attractive to resist.

It does seem odd that what was a stabbing attack by 2 individuals, one with a pen knife and one with a larger dagger or bayonet, would spawn another solo killer who doesnt seem interested in stabbing so much,... but stranger things have happened.

Best regards