Probibility of Martha Tabram Being a JtR Victim

[GUT]

It should have said main thing not mail.

Just re-read the inquest, actually Dr doesn't mention genitals, but also only lists 21 of the 39 stab wounds.

Though dissertation does say they included the groin, not sure where they got that though.

[GUT]

G'Day Watson

It is the mail thing that I keep coming back to re Martha, I think there was just the one and it was I seem to remember described as a cut rather than a stab, but at the moment I can't find the exact reference.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Tabram

Were not her genitals stabbed? Be it random or deliberate, it occured. Might that have significance?

[J6123]

I don't see any sign of frenzy in the Nichols murder at all. In Tabram, I see a desperation to make sure she was dead. Because Emma lived and talked. But I wouldn't call it a 'frenzy'. He spent a decent amount of time on that landing with Martha. He made no mistakes. Not a single bloody footprint (which is remarkable if you know anything about similar crime scenes), not a single blood drop. Nothing clumsily left behind. No witnesses. Nobody heard a thing or at least admitted to having done so.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

yes, I agree with you about Tabram. no fatal slash to the throat, just the dozens of stabs to various vital parts of the body. so yes, a desperate attempt by an inexperienced and uncertain killer, to make sure she was dead. it makes sense.

[GUT]

Once again Tom thanks.

[Tom_Wescott]

G'Day Tom

Is Emily Horsnail covered in your book, I am really interested in learning more about her. I really think that there has to be a starting point before the C5 probably a long way before, and in my opinion that aspect is all to often ignored.

Hi Gut, yes I have a chapter on her and I believe her murder was related to that of Smith and Tabram. And she had known Pearly Poll for years.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[GUT]

G'Day Tom

Is Emily Horsnail covered in your book, I am really interested in learning more about her. I really think that there has to be a starting point before the C5 probably a long way before, and in my opinion that aspect is all to often ignored.

[Tom_Wescott]

Youre saying that she didnt ID someone then change her mind based on his uniform details Tom? If so...thats incorrect.

Cheers

I just finished writing a book called The Bank Holiday Murders about Tabram and Smith. Pearly Poll is the primary character of the book (it's non-fiction, by the way). Do you really wanna debate me on this? I know you can take a beating...I've handed you your azz how many times on the Stride threads? But come on, Mike.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Michael W Richards]

What you just described never even happened. She ID'd two soldiers and stuck by her story. But the soldiers had iron clad alibis. Even after her story was completely discredited she stuck to it.

Yours truly,

Tom WEscott

Youre saying that she didnt ID someone then change her mind based on his uniform details Tom? If so...thats incorrect.

Cheers

[GUT]

G'Day Tom

"Controlled Frenzy" might be the best I can do.

[Tom_Wescott]

G'Day Tom

Perhaps frenzy was a poor choice of words, what I don't see is a lengthy procedure.

No, not a poor choice of words. The way books typically describe what happened, it leaves the impression she was rushed in a frenzy and stabbed 39 times. I've used the word 'frenzy' in describing Tabram in the past. But I've discovered there was more to her murder. A lot more. That's part of the reason I decided to write a book that focused on Smith and Tabram and significant new finds that stemmed from that. Too little attention has been afforded these crimes, as well as the first actual Whitechapel murder, Emily Horsnail. These murders are the start of all this Ripper stuff. We have two neighboring houses...18 and 19 George Street. In the space of 9 months three of the residents are brutally murdered and a fourth is put in the hospital for 20 days. That's not coincidence. One week after the papers reported on the final day of the Tabram inquest, Polly Nichols is murdered. Was she the first Ripper victim? Maybe. She might also have been the fourth.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

One additional point regarding bayonets.....we know that Pearly Poll did in fact say she recognized one of the soldiers paraded in front of her, an ID she retracted. That in and of itself doesnt rule out soldiers, there may have been a few reasons for her retraction, including fear. She left town before the original scheduled line-up took place...they had to re-schedule it.

Could that have been retribution fears on her part?

Cheers

What you just described never even happened. She ID'd two soldiers and stuck by her story. But the soldiers had iron clad alibis. Even after her story was completely discredited she stuck to it.

Yours truly,

Tom WEscott

[Michael W Richards]

One additional point regarding bayonets.....we know that Pearly Poll did in fact say she recognized one of the soldiers paraded in front of her, an ID she retracted. That in and of itself doesnt rule out soldiers, there may have been a few reasons for her retraction, including fear. She left town before the original scheduled line-up took place...they had to re-schedule it.

Could that have been retribution fears on her part?

Cheers

[GUT]

G'Day Tom

Perhaps frenzy was a poor choice of words, what I don't see is a lengthy procedure.

[Tom_Wescott]

G' Day GUT,

i would plump for the latter. to me the Polly Nichols murder looks frenzied rather than controlled and carefully planned out. hard to say if Tabram was killed by the same man. i was going to say that the thoughts of Nichol's killer seem to have been more bizarre than the thoughts of Tabram's killer, not that Tabram's killer wasn't sick in the head..

I don't see any sign of frenzy in the Nichols murder at all. In Tabram, I see a desperation to make sure she was dead. Because Emma lived and talked. But I wouldn't call it a 'frenzy'. He spent a decent amount of time on that landing with Martha. He made no mistakes. Not a single bloody footprint (which is remarkable if you know anything about similar crime scenes), not a single blood drop. Nothing clumsily left behind. No witnesses. Nobody heard a thing or at least admitted to having done so.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott