Distribution of Tabram's wounds.

[Losmandris]

Varied.

British Pattern 1887 Mk.I Bayonet | Bayonets | Lawrance Ordnance

That is a big old blade! Surely if something like that had been used that final wound would have been more extensive. Must have been something smaller!

Tristan

[John G]

The Wiki got that a bit wonky: the focus of the stabs was overwhelmingly on the upper abdomen, chest and throat. Only one wound was in the lower body and, as far as I can recall, it isn't clear that it was in the groin. The breasts don't get much of a look-in, either.

The fullest account I've found of Dr Killeen's testimony is in the East London Observer of 11th August 1888, relevant sections below:

"the left lung was penetrated in five places, and the right lung in two places [...] The heart was... penetrated in one place. [...] The liver was healthy, but was penetrated in five places; the spleen was perfectly healthy, and was penetrated in two places; both the kidneys were perfectly healthy; the stomach was also perfectly healthy, but was penetrated in six places; the intestines were healthy, and so were all the other organs. The lower portion of the body was penetrated in one place, the wound being three inches in length and one in depth. [...]
I don't think that all the wounds were inflicted with the same instrument, because there was one wound on the breast bone which did not correspond with the other wounds on the body. The instrument with which the wounds were inflicted, would most probably be an ordinary knife, but a knife would not cause such a wound as that on the breast bone. That wound I should think would have been inflicted with some form of dagger."

You may notice that the tally of stabs doesn't add up to 39. That's because that report doesn't mention the multiple wounds to the throat and breast (chest), which do get mentioned in the Morning Advertiser of the 10th:

"There were no fewer than nine in the throat and 17 in the breast. [Killeen] had since made a post-mortem examination, and found the left lung penetrated in five places and the right lung in two places. The heart had been penetrated, but only in one place [...]. The liver was healthy, but penetrated in five places, and the spleen was penetrated in two places. The stomach was healthy, but penetrated in six places. In witness's opinion the wounds were not inflicted with the same instrument, there being a deep wound in the breast from some long, strong instrument, while most of the others were done apparently by a penknife. The large wound could be caused by a sword bayonet or dagger."

Good citation, Sam. Keppel concluded that Tabram was a Ripper victim, but for some reason he thought that 13 of the wounds were in the lower part of the body. This leas him to conclude, apparently erroneously, that she was repeatedly stabbed in the genital area, demonstrating a link with the C5, minus Stride of course.

[A P Tomlinson]

I wonder if the wound pattern is consistent with Martha either standing up or lying down? Could the explanation that they were inflicted with the one weapon be that the 39 or so were made whilst she was standing up and the last whilst she was lying down. I am thinking that you would be able to exert far more force on someone lying on the ground than you would with some one standing up. Anything in the post-mortem to indicate position?

Tristan

You would probably see a marked difference in the orientation of the wounds.
For instance, someone stabbing a standing target with a knife would (USUALLY) do so with the blade upward in the fist and the blows would strike upwards with most wounds oriented vertically from head to foot. Attacking a prone victim in the torso, the attacker would normally strike from one side or the other with the blade downward in the fist. This would cause wounds at closer to 90 degrees to any caused while standing, rotating round as they struck further up,
(Hope that makes sense)

From a purely anecdotal test performed over a decade ago (to settle an argument) a friend and I found that most people will hold and use a knife/sword with the blade vertical, i.e. with the quillon or "cross guard" following the line of an outstretched arm with the hand in a normal closed fist. (This was in no way a scientific process and involved us pestering friends who visited our homes to participate... Ian's wife put a stop to it when someone told her we were "not right in the head")

There is the possibility that several stabs to the lower abdomen began the attack while both were standing.
This would cause the victim to "double over" bringing the chest and neck into play for powerful upward blows from the waist. (My old karate teacher used to tell all new young students who wanted to be Power Rangers, "If you want to kick someone in the head, don't jump about like a ballet dancer... kick them in the balls once and just watch them offer you their head as a target instead...")

It would be easier to break the sternum of a victim doubled over with an upward blow than striking at the chest of a fully upright target. That's just physics, you need less force to push someone over than to lift them off their feet. Unless, of course, there's a wall or something behind them...(there's always a caveat...)

If most of the wounds were long from head to foot, I'd go for her being stood for the majority of the attack, if they were more haphazard and random, I'd suggest she was prone for the majority...

[A P Tomlinson]

That is a big old blade! Surely if something like that had been used that final wound would have been more extensive. Must have been something smaller!

Tristan

I'm currently waiting for a reply from another source to the question of whether soldiers in the lower ranks would carry their bayonet while in uniform, but off duty during the period. We know the two punters Pearly Poll describes were wearing uniform, (cap band and sleeve stripe) but do we know if they had such weapons strapped to their belts? Off duty officers would parade around like peacocks on a Bank Holiday, feathers and dress sword and the whole shebang. But common rank and file?
I don't know.

But I'd have thought Poll' would have pointed such a thing out at the inquest? (Unless it was so common as to be taken as read, that they did...)

If anyone here knows of such military habits I'd love to hear their thoughts.

[Joshua Rogan]

I'm currently waiting for a reply from another source to the question of whether soldiers in the lower ranks would carry their bayonet while in uniform, but off duty during the period. We know the two punters Pearly Poll describes were wearing uniform, (cap band and sleeve stripe) but do we know if they had such weapons strapped to their belts? Off duty officers would parade around like peacocks on a Bank Holiday, feathers and dress sword and the whole shebang. But common rank and file?
I don't know.

But I'd have thought Poll' would have pointed such a thing out at the inquest? (Unless it was so common as to be taken as read, that they did...)

If anyone here knows of such military habits I'd love to hear their thoughts.

I don't know how true it is, but I've read somewhere that NCOs were permitted to carry their sidearms when off duty, but not privates.
Poll described one of her soldiers as wearing stripes, so he was thought to be a corporal and so would be eligible.

[Michael W Richards]

It might make sense that this was a pack murder. One frenzied and furious does the stabbing, another makes a very deliberate blow to keep her from talking.

though I don’t recall, is this the era with dagger shaped bayonets or spikes?

Both. Short sword style. Pointed spike styles. The breadth of the wound would be one way of telling.

[DJA]

That is a big old blade! Surely if something like that had been used that final wound would have been more extensive. Must have been something smaller!

Tristan

Agreed.

Have experience with the Lee Enfield 303 bayonet,which was of similar dimension and appearance yet half the weight.

"Pigstabber" bayonets were actually not in use at the time,although they made a return in the next century.

Just posted the link for Errata.

Not much interested in Tabram as a "possible" Ripper victim.

[Abby Normal]

The one inch depth doesn't sound much like a rip to me, Abs; if it was, the three inch length doesn't make it much of a slash either. It could well have been a stab gone wrong.

thank you Sam
perhaps- to me it seems like it could be a "slash" that went wrong or was just light or tentative . a stab would tend to be deeper than it is long while a slash would be vice versus as this one was. perhaps the first sign of the rippers true sig coming out-a slight slash(tentative cut) to the private parts?

[Joshua Rogan]

thank you Sam
perhaps- to me it seems like it could be a "slash" that went wrong or was just light or tentative . a stab would tend to be deeper than it is long while a slash would be vice versus as this one was. perhaps the first sign of the rippers true sig coming out-a slight slash(tentative cut) to the private parts?

From memory, Alice McKenzie suffered what may have been a similar cut, to the mons veneris. I believe Phillips suggested this might have been caused accidentally when the killer lifted her skirts whilst holding the knife.

[Michael W Richards]

US made Spike style bayonets were readily available during the LVP, many Civil War vets were Irish immigrants from the Northeast USA, and came to London after their service in the States.

[DJA]

I don't know how true it is, but I've read somewhere that NCOs were permitted to carry their sidearms when off duty, but not privates.
Poll described one of her soldiers as wearing stripes, so he was thought to be a corporal and so would be eligible.

We've had different rules last century here in Oz.
Included no ammo carried with a firearm. Removal of rifle bolts which were secreted in kit or hidden around the body.A sporran was handy.

Doubt any soldier would be wearing a scabbard around the traps, unless they had been on parade.

[Sam Flynn]

thank you Sam
perhaps- to me it seems like it could be a "slash" that went wrong or was just light or tentative . a stab would tend to be deeper than it is long while a slash would be vice versus as this one was. perhaps the first sign of the rippers true sig coming out-a slight slash(tentative cut) to the private parts?

If so, I'd say it was extremely tentative attack on the private parts (if it was; it's not clear), given that he'd spent 99% of his time stabbing the upper half of the body 38 times.

[Michael W Richards]

Isnt anybody keying to the fact that the single larger wound was in the breastbone? If the larger wound would have appeared anywhere else it might be confused as a wound that is slightly broader due to the angle, in the chest its intention is clear.

[Errata]

Both. Short sword style. Pointed spike styles. The breadth of the wound would be one way of telling.

The reason I ask, is because I’m wondering why the coroner referred to it as a bayonet. With the dagger style bayonets they are slim blades, very long, but still knife like. Why not say knife wound? Now, a man familiar with war injuries would recognize a long slim knife to the breastbone as very like a bayonet injury. He might compare the blade used to a bayonet. But aside from that, I feel like the only wound style that could only come from a bayonet is the triangular almost rapier shaped spike style bayonet. It certainly was highly unlikely to be a smallsword wound.

And are we assuming the bayonet was the currently issued weapon of a soldier, or is it a 20 year old model picked up from a pawn shop.

Personally, having been stabbed by a small sword, I favor the triangular spike type. if I wanted to get through breastbone. That would be my first choice.

[Errata]

From a purely anecdotal test performed over a decade ago (to settle an argument) a friend and I found that most people will hold and use a knife/sword with the blade vertical, i.e. with the quillon or "cross guard" following the line of an outstretched arm with the hand in a normal closed fist. (This was in no way a scientific process and involved us pestering friends who visited our homes to participate... Ian's wife put a stop to it when someone told her we were "not right in the head")

Ahahaha you’re like me. Crazy experiments.

now are you saying that most people held it underhand? With the blade above the fist, vs The fist above the blade? Or do you mean they held it in an En Garde position?