Why were the soldiers never identified?

[Celesta]

Hi HR,

Barrett saw the Guardsman around 2 a.m. Where was the guardsman right after that? After Barrett walked off? Does there even have to be a second guardsman?

[Hellrider]

yes, exactly...

she might have died between 1:50 AM and 3 AM..there is enough time. If we include the soldier theory, then I should think it likely that she died in the first half of that period (around 2 AM)

[Celesta]

HR:

The actual act of killing her took, with very little variation, at least 30 seconds.

I didn't try this out on my ex-wife, but trust me, I can tell you straight up, from the first blow to the last, it would take very close to 30 seconds.

OOPS! What I meant was that the time available could have been as much as an hour, or close to it. Sorry, How! I'm thinking faster than I'm writing tonight. Once you figure that Mrs. Mahoney went up the stairs at approx. 1:50 a.m., her third pass BTW, and that the cab driver Alfred Crow, saw a body there at about 3 a.m., then the stairwell, to our knowledge, would have been available for roughly an hour. Sorry, that was awkward in the first post. It's been a long day, though not a bad one.

[Howard Brown]

HR:

The actual act of killing her took, with very little variation, at least 30 seconds.

I didn't try this out on my ex-wife, but trust me, I can tell you straight up, from the first blow to the last, it would take very close to 30 seconds.

[Celesta]

HR and How,

I figure there's as much as an hour or just under to kill her.

Okay, How, I'll follow the thread.

[Howard Brown]

HR and Cellie:

I am going to set up a thread ( in a way linked to this one...) about Doc Killeen and the bayonet theory.

[Hellrider]

It is suppoed that Martha died at 2:30 AM (as far as I remember), so there is still half an hour left between Miss Mahoney returning home and the death of Martha. Enought time to come up the stairs and kill somebody I should say

[Celesta]

I read Sugden's discussion of this soldier business this morning. He says the police did not have a lot of confidence in the soldier story. They carried on with the identity parades because the soldier lead was all they had to go on. They knew that bayonets could be come by cheaply in the markets and that even kids used them for play toys. Also, Mrs. Mahoney climbed the stairs for the last time, just before 2 a.m. and there was no body there. If Poll can be believed, Martha went off with the soldier around 11:45 p.m., but her body was not discovered, for the first time, until around 3 a.m. That's 3 hours. Even though Barrett encountered the soldier around 2 a.m., the police still had no powerful sense that she could have been killed by a soldier. She could easily have finished with the soldier and moved on to another client. There is an hour's play between Barrett's talking to the soldier and Martha's body being seen for the first time. That's what Sugden says, anyway.

If Martha had been accosted by a gang, it seems that there would have been some noise.

[Celesta]

Hello How & HR,

This is certainly reasonable, Howard. It's hard to know really what they might do, but from our perspective it would seem logical not to protect a murderer. I'm certainly no expert on the military of the era and how they would view a cover-up.

[Howard Brown]

HR:

would the officer of a regiment maybe help his subordinates by passing information down to them? I mean, if soldiers are involved in something like murder, the officer will be always be held responsible somehow, especially in these times where officers had a strict code of honor. So, I guess, a lot of officers would have gone to great lengths to not let their regiment shine in bad light

I would suppose that Guardsmen consorting with prostitutes was not uncommon, so it would be known to police and Guard officers that sort of "trade" went on...and likely with a blind eye towards it.

I'd have to disagree that an officer would willingly condone murder by not assisting in a police investigation. Maybe some other people disagree,I don't know. Again, this was a capital offense and if one aided and abetted by attempting to either successfully or not, cover up such a crime, THEN the officer in the regiment would definitely suffer the consequences.

[Hellrider]

would the officer of a regiment maybe help his subordinates by passing information down to them? I mean, if soldiers are involved in something like murder, the officer will be always be held responsible somehow, especially in these times where officers had a strict code of honor. So, I guess, a lot of officers would have gone to great lengths to not let their regiment shine in bad light

[Howard Brown]

2) even if she told the police what she knew, the soldiers might have covered up for one another (i.e. other soldiers on leave that night saying they were with their comrades), and I guess, guardsmen would have been more credible than a street whore.

HR:

How would the guardsmen know what Poll was going to say if she went to the police first ? Perhaps the head of the Guard might be told by the police officials of what they were planning to do...conduct a lineup...but not the pool of possible individuals from whence the killer might be found.

The police felt Poll's comments were worthy of contemplation, if they took her on two identity parades. A guardsman who could be linked to a liason with prostitutes would be no more credible than the woman, I would think.

[Celesta]

I was able to find this about Poll. It's by Scott Nelson. The Title: An Alternate Kosminksi Suspect and Police Witness: Some Perspectives and Points to Ponder.

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/kosfinal.html

Buck's Row

The Echo (20 September 1888) reported that detectives were investigating "a slight clue given to them by Pearly Poll..", aka Mary Ann Connolly, Martha Tabram's cohort when they picked up two soldiers on 7 August 1888, "..that was not thought much of at the time.." (ie., the week or so following Tabram's murder), but was by then (date of Echo report) supported by Elizabeth Allan and Eliza Cooper, (who fought with Annie Chapman sometime between August 28th and 30th, the week before her death on September 8th). This was due to pointed suspicion "..at a man actually living not far from Buck's Row".31 Both Cooper and Allan, along with Connelly, stayed at Crossingham's Lodging House, 35 Dorset Street, opposite Miller's Court. What hasn't really been discussed before, that I am aware of, is that if we look at these dates, here you have a potential witness (Connelly) giving some unspecified evidence to the police after a JtR-type killing (Tabram), but before Chapman, who she possible knew, was killed. One could argue that the date of the Echo report (Sept 20th) suggests that the clue was only supplied to the police by Connelly at this later time, but we also have the statement that the clue "was not thought much of at the time", suggesting that it was given before Chapman's death. This, to me, suggests a possible trail of JtR victim interrelationships and that the police probably thoroughly investigated these ties, but found no obvious links. There is also the previously mentioned report that Sadler at one time worked in Buck's Row. Did this indirectly focus police attention on Kosminski after Sadler was arrested?


I'm still trying to find out what happened to her. Just getting started.

[Celesta]

Hi HR,

She surely suspected the guardsman. Any of the things you suggest are possible. Of course, she also knew she couldn't be 100% certain. I do think they might have colluded to protect him, but at least some would be convinced of his innocence.

It's my understanding that the soldiers of this time period were not thought of very highly. If you take a look at the Stigma Stigmata thread, you'll see something about that there, too.

Best wishes,

Celesta

[Hellrider]

Hey Celesta, good point you make there, about the guy not admitting his guilt

BUT....

if Poll really was hanging around with martha and the two soldiers, then she would have known which of the two went with HER and who went with Martha. So to say: she knew who was with Martha and later on, Martha was found dead. To what conclusion would she have come? Of course, that the man with Martha is at least involved in her death.

So, basically, the soldier knew that Poll would suspect him being guilty somehow, so he decided to take the first step; of course, he would have had to reveal his guilt to Poll, but he might have thought she already suspected him PLUS he intimidated her not to tell the police what she knew. She was dependent on him in several ways:
1) soldiers were good customers
2) even if she told the police what she knew, the soldiers might have covered up for one another (i.e. other soldiers on leave that night saying they were with their comrades), and I guess, guardsmen would have been more credible than a street whore. So the attempt would fail and Poll would be a dead woman virtually