Martha Tabram--First In The Series

Almost certainly an evolved characteristic, Mike.

Like the MO-consistent Dennis Rader, he had a "general idea of what he wanted to do", but the actual specifics evolved with discovery and practice. I've no doubt whatsoever that he had complusions, i.e. to murder and mutilate women, but the acute particulars were susceptible to change as he gained new insights. Clearly there were many aspects that he stuck with once he'd discovered them, but that doesn't mean that he had a meticulously prepared mutilation criteria that he intended to carry out to the letter.

Best regards,
Ben

If its just an evolved desire or need Ben, then how does he evolve to the point where we have him committing 2 very similar, ...strikingly similar murders with consecutive victims within a months time?

He begins, or is early stages with frenzied, barely controlled stabs, showing little or no knife prowess...and in a month he can excise a uterus complete?

I believe this guy entered the stage with desires and objectives he could no longer suppress, or satisfy in other forms.

Cheers Ben

[Chava]

(plaintive little voice)

The thing is, I started this thread more as a place where people who do think she may have been the start of the series could talk about what could be learned from her. The other thread could be used to discuss whether he is a victim at all.

Having looked at the descriptions of men seen with victims before their deaths, it seems to me that Ada Wilson's guy could well be the Ripper on an early and unfocussed foray. Because her description of her attacker matches horribly well with descriptions of a man seen with Stride, Eddowes and Kelly. If the Wilson case is a possible Ripper attack, then he was out and about previous to the Nicholls killing. And also he was stabbing rather than cutting. Wilson shows up with stab wounds to her torso and legs.

[Mitch Rowe]

Hi Mitch,

As per my highlights above...

1. It would have been more difficult considering he is killing her while they are standing....but thats more a reason to not match the murders than it is to support his non mutilations as a "choice".

2. I would not ever suggest myself that what happened to Kate Eddowes was a result of "cutting corners"....all that he did in around 6 minutes excluding his egress? He went to town and accomplished much there...no corners seem cut at all....excluding from an apron section.

3. Stabbing is an external act, it is agressive. Holding warm wet organs taken from a murdered woman is internal in every sense, very subjective and personal. People get stabbed all the time, Ill bet its the most widely carried weapon in the world...few have their bellies cut open and guts taken from them...in the dark.

Cheers Mitch.

Hi..

I dont anything about anyone standing while being attacked so I dont understand your first statement. Sorry.

From what I can see of the scant "evidence" left behind in these cases JTR didnt spend as much time as he did with AC or MJK. Both Philips and Bond describe the three flaps of skin removed in both these cases. I surmise that it takes more time to do that than what was done to Eddowes. I would suppose JTRs ultimate goal was what he did to MJK and that included mutitudes of skin cutting.

I dont know if JTR knew that much about stabbing to be able to tell what kind of an act it was beyond unlawful.

Cheers

[Ben]

Is it your contention that this need or compulsion was an evolved characteristic, or is it one inherent in the killers personna to begin with?

Almost certainly an evolved characteristic, Mike.

Like the MO-consistent Dennis Rader, he had a "general idea of what he wanted to do", but the actual specifics evolved with discovery and practice. I've no doubt whatsoever that he had complusions, i.e. to murder and mutilate women, but the acute particulars were susceptible to change as he gained new insights. Clearly there were many aspects that he stuck with once he'd discovered them, but that doesn't mean that he had a meticulously prepared mutilation criteria that he intended to carry out to the letter.

Best regards,
Ben

Hi Ben,

Ok, let me try this tact with you......would you agree that within the Canon there are victims that show evidence of their killers interest in postmortem mutilation?

Ok. Would you agree that to engage in such acts in public constitutes some drive or compulsion that forces him to risk being caught by staying after he has killed them to cut them open? In other words.....something he feels he must do?

Is it your contention that this need or compulsion was an evolved characteristic, or is it one inherent in the killers personna to begin with?

Personally, I believe the compulsion pre-dates the acts in this case. Which is why I feel when he gives in to the compulsions he will act out what he has supressed....why else would he act out unless to fulfill those dark thoughts...in this case, opening womens abdomens once they have been killed. Cutting and slicing human beings. It would explain why he can be so "productive" in such short periods of time...he was focussed.

I dont think in "Jacks" case, that need was merely killing.....as in the death of Martha Tabram and Elizabeth Strides for example.

Cheers Ben

[Ben]

Hi Mike,

Hi Ben, my point was that to stab someone repeatedly and often at 90 degree angles implies that likely for most of those stabs Martha was between him and a wall and she slumped gradually as he continued his pump action stabbing.

I'm really not sure why this is any more probable than the far more trouble-free option of stabbing her as she was lying down?

But as the victim list grows, her likely inclusion fades. Why is that? Because they were better able to see one mans work when they had a few repetitive, almost identical style murders

None of that makes her inclusion any less "likely", though. History and experience has effectively nullified any justification for ruling out any victim that isn't as "identical" as two of three in the series. Where you have a few "identical" victims, the killer is practically guaranteed to have been responsible for some less identical ones, and you're most likely to find those at the beginning of the series, when the killer was embarking upon his voyage of heinous discovery.

A very small minority of killers have a robot-like consistency in their approach, and get it spot on with their first murder, and I see no reason to place Jack in the minority. More likely, in my view, he gained insights as he progressed and learned on the job like most of 'em.

Best regards,
Ben

Hi again,

Hi Ben, my point was that to stab someone repeatedly and often at 90 degree angles implies that likely for most of those stabs Martha was between him and a wall and she slumped gradually as he continued his pump action stabbing. My guess by the medical reports is that some wounds may have been downward stabs, like with a bent arm action.

I unhesitatingly agree with you that Martha's stabbing is far more severe than any run of the mill murder....in fact when reading the press reports as they came out and the murders were attributed to this elusive killer, Martha was thought to be one of the most savage murders in recent memory.

But as the victim list grows, her likely inclusion fades. Why is that? Because they were better able to see one mans work when they had a few repetitive, almost identical style murders. Im pretty sure that you would agree that one reason the Dear Boss letter chooses Jack the RIPper is because he had already "ripped" 2 women open at that point in time.

A new killer came out of the murders of Polly and Annie, not the same guy or gang who they thought was intimidating street prostitutes and using a knife or blunt object like in Emmas case. Those murders were very different from Marthas....and some future Canonicals.

Amongst the mayhem that is Ripperology are 3 women who may even have been killed consecutively...if Liz wasnt Jacks.... that share an eerie similarity in the method of their dispatch and resulting wounds to one another. There are also, other women who were murdered during that time that were unsolved crimes.

Cheers mate.

[harry]

Yes the Killing at Gateshead was proved to have not been connected,although the general feeling at the beginning was of the same killer.Inspector Steer?(not sure if the name correct)stated in September 1888,that the killings had started two months earlier.That would be July.Inspector Murray,in the same month ,stated the killings had started 'months' earlier.

[Ben]

Absolutely right, Jez.

1. It would have been more difficult considering he is killing her while they are standing

Still not too sure where you're getting that one from, Mike. The chances of Tabram remaining upright after 39 stab wounds were almost certainly zero.

People get stabbed all the time, Ill bet its the most widely carried weapon in the world...few have their bellies cut open and guts taken from them...in the dark.

But people didn't receive the injuries Tabram did "all the time", which is why the unusual ferocity of the attack was considered so rare even for that district, with the coroner not only observed that an attack on that scale had not occured for a great many years, but that the perpatrator must be a "lunatic".

Best regards,
Ben

[Jez]

Another possibility is that Jack was still an apprentice, learning his "trade".
We shouldn't expect his first killing to be similar to his last.

Right..

It occured to me the police also thought Martha was with a client on the landing. So.. If its JTR and he goes with Martha to the landing he ends up stabbing her multiple times. And it seems the stabs were directed at vital areas on the body.

1. Why would JTR do this and not attempt to remove organs? Maybe because it was a landing and JTR does like what he did with Eddowes. 2. He cuts(pun not intended)corners when he feels he doesnt have the time.

3. Maybe just stabbing the vital organs was enough mutilation to satisfy JTR for the conditions he thought he was in?

Hi Mitch,

As per my highlights above...

1. It would have been more difficult considering he is killing her while they are standing....but thats more a reason to not match the murders than it is to support his non mutilations as a "choice".

2. I would not ever suggest myself that what happened to Kate Eddowes was a result of "cutting corners"....all that he did in around 6 minutes excluding his egress? He went to town and accomplished much there...no corners seem cut at all....excluding from an apron section.

3. Stabbing is an external act, it is agressive. Holding warm wet organs taken from a murdered woman is internal in every sense, very subjective and personal. People get stabbed all the time, Ill bet its the most widely carried weapon in the world...few have their bellies cut open and guts taken from them...in the dark.

Cheers Mitch.

[Mitch Rowe]

I think the Ripper drive-by idea is a bit far-fetched. In my opinion, that landing would have been an ideal place for a prostitute to take a client...

Right..

It occured to me the police also thought Martha was with a client on the landing. So.. If its JTR and he goes with Martha to the landing he ends up stabbing her multiple times. And it seems the stabs were directed at vital areas on the body.

Why would JTR do this and not attempt to remove organs? Maybe because it was a landing and JTR does like what he did with Eddowes. He cuts(pun not intended)corners when he feels he doesnt have the time.

Maybe just stabbing the vital organs was enough mutilation to satisfy JTR for the conditions he thought he was in?

[Sam Flynn]

Harry, thanks for that! I think you're referring to this:

Here's a cracking article on the subject by Alan Sharp...

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rn-beadmore.html

[Sam Flynn]

Ah well, Gareth, you see I think Stride was an aborted Ripper killing. And I am not at all sure that Kelly is a Ripper killing. But I think, if you want to discuss Stride, it should be on a Stride thread...

I don't wish to discuss her, Chava - you may be sure of that. However, since it was thee you brought up Kelly on a Tabram thread...

[Chava]

Harry, thanks for that! I think you're referring to this:

Weekly Herald
September 28th, 1888
A TERRIBLE MURDER AT
GATESHEAD.
_____

WOMAN SHOCKINGLY MUTILATED.
___

A young woman named Jane Beatmoor, 28 years of age, was the victim of a horrible murder at Birtley, near Gateshead on Saturday night or Sunday morning. It appears that the deceased, who was in delicate health, had been at the Gateshead Dispensary on Saturday for medicine, and on returning home she went out to purchase some sweets with which to take her medicine. She called at several farms while she was out, and at half-past seven at night left the house of an acquaintance named Mr. Newell, evidently with the intention of returning home. She had not arrived at eleven o'clock, and her mother and step-father went to look for her without success, and concluded that she must have spent the night with some neighbour. Early in the morning, a miner, named John Fish, going to work found the body of the deceased at the bottom of the railway embankment in a horribly mutilated condition. The conty police were communicated with and Superintendent Harrison and Sergeant Hutchinson, of Birtley, were soon on the spot. A closer inspection revealed the fact that the lower part of the deceased's body had been cut open and the entrails torn out. She was also cut about the face. The body was conveyed home and a doctor sent for. The affair has caused quite a panic in the district, the resemblance to the Whitechapel tragedies encouraging the idea that the maniac who has been at work in London has travelled down to the North of England to pursue his fiendish vocation. No arrests have been made. Further inquiries made at the scene of the murder do not diminish the shocking brutality of the crime. The unfortunate woman is stabbed in three places--once in the bowels and twice in the face. The wound in the body is very deep, the knife having knocked a piece off the vertebrae. The body was found only a few hundred yards from the Girls' Home by the side of the Colliery Railway. She was last seen at eight o'clock on Saturday night alone, and the man Fish found her about half-past seven on Sunday morning. There were no marks of a struggle, and no trace of footsteps. The police are completely baffled, as the murderer has left not the slightest clue. During Sunday thousands of persons visited the spot where the body was found, and the affair has caused the utmost consternation

Now there are a bunch of similarities to the Ripper murders, and a couple to the Tabram murder. There are stab wounds to the body, one of which has penetrated bone. As well, the organs have been messed-about with, and the face has been mutilated.

I think the Ripper drive-by idea is a bit far-fetched. In my opinion, that landing would have been an ideal place for a prostitute to take a client...