How likely is she to have been a Ripper victim?

[Uncle Jack]

As I am new to the forum, I look forward to discissing mine and others theories together but I shall leave that for another thread but one of my beliefs is that there was a "second Ripper", who, in my opinion, murdered McKenzie and Coles and probably murdered victims such as Mrs Woolfe. I also believe this second Ripper's first victim was Rose Mylett.

[Pinkerton]

Sadler killed Frances Coles. He wasn't Jack even though the police were still looking for a suspect. He used a knife, yes, but he wasn't Jack. Jack wasn't seen everywhere with his suspects for the better part of 2 days. Jack stalked, he killed, he left.

Um...someone is a little too sure of them self. I can accept "Sadler MIGHT HAVE killed Frances Coles". I can even accept "Sadler PROBABLY killed Frances Coles". But I cannot accept "Sadler killed Frances Coles". Had it been a certainty the police would not have dropped the case. There are good arguments both for AND against.

[detective abberline]

Although I agree with the above point, it is worth noting both Nichols and Stride lodged away from their usual doss a few day prior to their murder.They could have been on a bender with someone, as Coles was.
Eddowes went awol on the day of her murder, turning up, out of her skull later that evening.

Hi. Where they walked and where Jack prowled was a reasonably confined area. They were lost in alco benders most of the time, I would expect. They would wander away from their local doss but I'd guess always wander back.

[revpetero]

stated that Frances went off with a violent man in a cheesecutter hat (whatever that is) .

A Cheesecutter hat is basically a flat cap


Peter

[Jon Guy]

Jack wasn't seen everywhere with his suspects for the better part of 2 days. Jack stalked, he killed, he left.

Although I agree with the above point, it is worth noting both Nichols and Stride lodged away from their usual doss a few day prior to their murder.They could have been on a bender with someone, as Coles was.
Eddowes went awol on the day of her murder, turning up, out of her skull later that evening.

[detective abberline]

Sadler killed Frances Coles. He wasn't Jack even though the police were still looking for a suspect. He used a knife, yes, but he wasn't Jack. Jack wasn't seen everywhere with his suspects for the better part of 2 days. Jack stalked, he killed, he left.

[Jon Guy]

Hello

The most obvious difference between Coles` injuries and "the others" is that it appears by the injury to the back of her head that she was thrown down to the ground. Otherwise, she had her throat cut left to right while on her back and she was tilted away from the killer.

Although I don`t think Sadler was responsible for any of the other murders we are studying, as he was away at sea, he is a good shout for Coles murder. When picked up by the Police the next day whilst sitting in a Pub, he initially seemed resigned to the fact that he was going to be charged with her murder, and said as much to the officers.

Sadler is interesting.
The only person he would keep in touch with was his mother.
When he met up his wife,Sally, in Whitechapel, after a brief seperation, they strolled around the area with Tom keen to take his missus to one of the Ripper crime scenes.
Possibly innocent, lots of people keep in touch with thier mum`s, and eveyone went to view the murder scenes.

[Mitch Rowe]

Guys,



I think these Ripperologists do so out of hand, without looking at the evidence as a whole.

Ive always found it odd those who accept Stride easily dismiss Coles simply because she doesnt fit with the timeline.

Look at the Stride murder and you are almost looking at Coles. A throat cut, possibility of the discoverer stumbling on the attacker, life only just escaping from the poor victim, the location, etc.

Marked similarities that would seem conicendental however I feel to look at one you must look at the other.

Monty

Right..I see your point. For me Stride is pretty much a "given" because the time between the two Stride/Eddowes murders are so close the chances are small that it could be co-incidence.
Soo..If I know with over 90% assurance that Stride is a victim of JTR why wouldnt JTR do such a thing again?
One thing I personally never do is to look at the negative aspects or the differences when trying to connect murders. But on the other hand Im very unsure that Tabram/Mc Kenzie/Coles are JTR victims. That doesnt mean I will ever discount them. This MadMan was out there. He was never caught and no one has ever proven who he was. He could have committed all the offenses we think of as relating to the ripper. JTR will always be my top suspect for any unsolved murder in the general area. Even the torso killings.

Sooo...Even though I am far less sure of the "others" than I am of the so called C5 I could never outright dismiss them as McNaghtan seems to have.
Unless McNaghtan had special info on the others that has been lost and that proves beyond doubt that the others were killed by known persons then McNaghton has made a terrible error in my mind at least.

[Hellrider]

hey guys,

when I said in the begnning I was surprised this thread didn't exist...of course, I was already a member of the old boards, but I was surprised that after the crash nobody reopened this thread because I think Frances is very tantalizing to look at...

On the other hand, if we look at her age, she is comparable to MJK. Strange thing that, because it seems reasonable that the Ripper normally murdered 40+ age prostitutes if we look at the C5. Kelly's death is sometimes attributed to a personal relation he had to her (lover etc). Then Mackenzie was 40 again and Coles remarkably younger. One might reason that the Ripper simply seized an opportunity when he slayed Frances Coles, but on the other hand, the C5 show clearly that he did not automatically take what fate brought before his blade. Otherwise, I'm sure, he would have had the chance to kill women younger than 40. So the solution would habe to be: Jack the Ripper (if he killed Frances Coles) must have had a relation to her as well, because she is outside of the group of people that is widely considered his prey.

[Bulldog]

Here's the 1891 census entry for Klosowski. Apparently he and his wife shared their rooms with a 17 year old boy from Poland who worked as his assistant. I can't make out the boy's name.

The Tewksbury Buildings were only a few blocks from the corner of Wentworth and Commercial Streets, where Ellen Calana (?) allegedly saw Coles meet her killer - a man she later testified was not Tom Sadler.

Bulldog

[Pinkerton]

Then again, as Carrotty Nell and Bulldog point out, there was a known murderer living somewhere in the area, and we have the evidence of Ellen Callagher who stated that Frances went off with a violent man in a cheesecutter hat (whatever that is) shortly before her death. Lots of suspects for this one.

I had forgotten about Francis going off with the guy in the cheesecutter hat. That's one more "minus" for Sadler NOT being the man (this man was described as younger than Sadler if memory serves me correctly). However as I said, I believe it was Sadler or the Ripper. In other words, the only thing that would leave me to believe that it might NOT have been the Ripper is that Sadler might have murdered her. You take him out of the equation and I would chalk it up to the Ripper. There aren't too many prostitutes with "cut throats" around this time period (plus or minus 20 years). I'm with Trevor on this one. I believe Ripperologists are too quick to rule out MacKenzie and Coles.

[The Grave Maurice]

Those are all very good points, Pinkerton. However, I don't think we can give too much weight to the fact that Sadler was never accused of any further murders. He was a bad-tempered drunk on a two-day bender who seemed to believe that Frances had colluded in his mugging on February 13. Motive enough for her murder and, having had a close call, he might have avoided similar situations in the future.

Then again, as Carrotty Nell and Bulldog point out, there was a known murderer living somewhere in the area, and we have the evidence of Ellen Callagher who stated that Frances went off with a violent man in a cheesecutter hat (whatever that is) shortly before her death. Lots of suspects for this one.

[Bulldog]

One thing that has always intrigued me about this particular case. The spot where Frances died is very close to Cable Street the likeliest (though unproven) address of George Chapman at this date. .

Severin Klosowski (later to become George Chapman after his return from America) most likely lived at 2, Tewksbury Buildings at the time of the Frances Coles murder. The national census taken during the first week of April, 1891 showed him living there with his wife, Lucy. The census taker spelled his first name 'Seweryn'. There is no doubt, however, that this was the same individual. Klosowski's wife was named Lucy, and 'Seweryn' is listed on the census sheet as a hair dresser.

Bulldog

[Pinkerton]

I think there are two possibilities in the case of Francis Coles--either Sadler killed her or the Ripper got her. In my opinion any other possibility is remote.

I'm torn as to whether Sadler killed Coles or not. On the plus side:

1--Sadler had had a fight with Coles that very day
2--A man identified Sadler as the person who sold him a knife the morning after Coles was murdered. Sadler denied he had a knife.
3--Sadler couldn't account for the time between 2-3am.
4--Sadler was last seen near the Royal Mint by a policeman between 15-30 minutes before Francis Coles body was found. The Royal Mint is very close to Swallow Gardens where Coles body was found.

On the minus side:

1--Many witnesses said Sadler was very drunk around the the time Coles was killed. This might account for him not having the ability to account for every hour of the night before. It was also make it more difficult to murder someone.
2--Sadler returned to the lodging house within 30-45 minutes after Coles was killed. Though he had some blood on him he was known to have been in a fight earlier. He later went to the hospital.
3--The knife that was claimed to have been sold by Sadler was very blunt.
4--As far as we know, Sadler never was ever accused of any other murders after Coles. And I believe he lived another 20 years or so.

I slightly lean towards Sadler being guilty, primarily because of reason #4. That is a HELL OF A COINCIDENCE that both Coles and Sadler started out in White's Row (they left separately at slightly different times), and both ended up way south of there in the same general area around the same time. If Sadler's defense could have come up with a SINGLE witness that saw him between 2 and 2:45 am OUT of this general area after he left the Mint then I would lean towards his innocence. If there was such a witness we don't have their testimony.

I might also add that IF Sadler intended to murder Coles on that day "pretending to be drunk" would have given him the perfect alibi. First he can claim he was too drunk to murder anyone, second he could claim that his memory was foggy because he was so inebriated, and thirdly he could purposefully start a fight with someone (he called a worker a "dock rat") so he could account for any blood on his person. I'm NOT saying he did this BUT this would be a great cover...

[Carrotty Nell]

One thing that has always intrigued me about this particular case. The spot where Frances died is very close to Cable Street the likeliest (though unproven) address of George Chapman at this date. She died in the same month in which Chapman suffered the devastating tragedy of the death of his son, and I personally believe it was this tragedy which first unbalanced his mind and was the catalyst for his long decent into evil. And it was not long after this time that Chapman so precipitately took ship for America.

I've never regarded Chapman as a serious candidate for the Ripper crimes of 88 for several reasons... but there are a few interesting coincidences above I think.