Hospital Protocol Question

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi all,

Okay, so let's say there was not a legal obligation to tell the police. Or a professional obligation. My whole point still stands - why didn't Haslip tell the police who were in fact AT the hospital while Emma was still there? Or the next day after she died, when he knew they were looking for the assailant of Malvina Haynes. Let's not forget there was a witness who saw her speaking with a man, so they had clues to work even before she became conscious.

The whole thing just stinks.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Errata]

Well, there were quite a few sanctimonious prigs in the medical profession. Still are. Maybe he thought Emma Smith's attack was a public service homicide, and she got what she deserved. Or maybe he didn't give a crap.

Do we know what she died of? A torn perineum is hardly a fatal injury. Certainly not within 24 hours. And it's hard to even die of blood loss from that, since it happens all the time with a lesser degree of severity during childbirth. There isn't a big blood supply there. Sepsis, sure but that takes time.

[Roy Corduroy]

Do we know what she died of?

Errata, at inquest, the doctor testifed peritonitis was the cause of death. Lloyd's Weekly, Apr 8

Also, the death certificate can be viewed at her Ripper Wiki entry (click here) But even expanding the image of the death cerficate, I can't read the body of it, only the one part that was magnified and set aside, the When and Where Died it says 'Fourth April 1888 London Hospital.'

Roy

[Errata]

Errata, at inquest, the doctor testifed peritonitis was the cause of death. Lloyd's Weekly, Apr 8

Also, the death certificate can be viewed at her Ripper Wiki entry (click here) But even expanding the image of the death cerficate, I can't read the body of it, only the one part that was magnified and set aside, the When and Where Died it says 'Fourth April 1888 London Hospital.'

Roy

Peritonitis?

So she was beaten and raped, and the use of a blunt object tore her perineum. And despite the blood loss, and the terrible and painful injury caused by that blunt object, that isn't what killed her.

So I guess that begs the question how in the hell did she get peritonitis? I've only ever heard of it resulting from a ruptured or perforated organ in the abdomen. Which a blunt object does not cause, certainly not if it is introduced vaginally. What she beaten so hard her spleen ruptured or something? Or was she operated on and it went badly?

[Simon Wood]

Hi Errata,

Just so I can get my bearings on this thread, may I ask if you are a doctor or medical practitioner?

Regards,

Simon

[Debra A]

Traumatic peritonitis?

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi all,

I looked back at the notes in 'Ultimate' and the Inspector DID ask the inquest witnesses (Dr. Haslip, Margaret Hames, and Mary Russell) why they didn't notify the police. They said they didn't think it was necessary.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Everybody,
Good to see Emma Smith is getting an airing by such distinguished experts!
I did quite a lot of research into her case when I was doing the article on George Chapman as he lived at the barber shop at 70 West India Dock Road in 1888 i.e. 15 years before his trial according to Mrs Radin,the landlady,testifying at his trial.Emma had last been seen talking to a man in a dark suit wearing a white scarf at the corner of Burdett Road and Farrance Street which is right next to the cross roads with West India Dock Road.I thought there might be a connection.
One of the interesting factors about her case was that where she said she had been attacked was allegedly close to where police were patrolling that night ,yet none had heard even a whisper from this 'gang attack'.Nor had either of the two women who accompanied her made an attempt to report it to police on the way to the hospital- in fact going to the hospital was against her will.
She was escorted by Mary Russell deputy keeper at the lodging house and Annie Lee to the hospital.Mary Russell had threatened her about her brawling and drunken episodes and its believed Emma was afraid to tell the doctor exactly what happened in case she was thrown out of her lodging hop use for good.She may even have managed to convey her fears in this regard to the doctor who examined her---or simply refused to be drawn.She gave no description of anyone in this alleged 'gang' and I for one doubt there ever was a gang.Emma,in my view, was a victim of JtR---whoever that was!

[Errata]

Hi Errata,

Just so I can get my bearings on this thread, may I ask if you are a doctor or medical practitioner?

Regards,

Simon

No I'm not. In fact I'm the only person in my entire family who isn't. My dad, my mom, my sister, my fiance, both aunts, both uncles, both cousins... it's appalling really. The closest thing I have to any qualification whatsoever is that I was a sex educator for a fair few years.

My knowledge comes solely from self defense and absorption. If you want to talk to anyone in my family, you better be able to talk medicine. And I'm the one who quizzes my fiance on class material as he plows through med school. But were I any kind of professional, the word "fornix" would not make me giggle.

[Debra A]

Traumatic peritonitis?

I meant to add this URL to my original post:

Traumatic peritonitis

I imagine that a rigid blunt object would have the same effect on an adult woman if used with violent force?

[mariab]

what makes me wonder in the Emma Smith case

The part of "peritoneum vs. perineum" has all been discussed here: http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=1317&page=2 As well as the Horsenail case.
Perhaps I should add that today, with the use of antibiotics and reconstructive surgery (plus eventually blood transfusion), Smith's life would have easily been saved.

I did quite a lot of research into her case when I was doing the article on George Chapman as he lived at the barber shop at 70 West India Dock Road in 1888 i.e. 15 years before his trial according to Mrs Radin,the landlady,testifying at his trial.Emma had last been seen talking to a man in a dark suit wearing a white scarf at the corner of Burdett Road and Farrance Street which is right next to the cross roads with West India Dock Road.I thought there might be a connection.

Yes, this was discussed at the inquest. I thought it was Margaret Hayes who gave evidence that she had last seen Smith between 00.00 and 1.00 a.m. on Tuesday morning (April 3d) talking to a man in black clothes and a white neckerchief near Farrant Street and Burdett Road. Apparently Hayes was running away from the neighbourhood, as she had herself been struck in the face a few minutes before by some men. And just before Christmas of the same year Hayes was injured by men under circumstances of a similar nature, and was in the infirmary for a fortnight. Do we know any details about the attack on Hayes, specifically if Hayes sustained any injuries in or around the genital area? Somehow makes me wonder if all these attacks were related, but with the frequency of attacks on prostitutes in Victorian Whitechapel, possibly not related, just random.

One of the interesting factors about her case was that where she said she had been attacked was allegedly close to where police were patrolling that night ,yet none had heard even a whisper from this 'gang attack'.

Interesting. From this it could be deduced that the attack might have been swift (differently than described in the papers) and that the assailant might have been aware of the police's patrolling timetables – as the Ripper apparently was? I'd be seeing more parallels to the Tabram case and the C5 if rape didn't occur with Smith.

Mary Russell had threatened her about her brawling and drunken episodes and its believed Emma was afraid to tell the doctor exactly what happened in case she was thrown out of her lodging hop use for good.She may even have managed to convey her fears in this regard to the doctor who examined her---or simply refused to be drawn.She gave no description of anyone in this alleged 'gang' and I for one doubt there ever was a gang.Emma,in my view, was a victim of JtR---whoever that was!

Apart from the fact that Smith might have not wished to advertize the fact that she was a prostitute, could it be that she knew but didn't want to disclose the identity of her assailants?
As for her being assailed by one man vs. more than one, there's physical evidence that it must have been more than one assailant involved in the attack. Won't say more on this, otherwise someone might accuse me of "regurgitating" things and might want to come at me with a knife, like a nice Ripper fanboi.

[mariab]

Shoo. Just seen the article from The Eastern Post & City Chronicle of April 14th, 1888 posted by Tom in post #6 of the present thread. I assume Malvina Hayes is Margaret Hayes as mentioned at the inquest? She sustained head injuries, not injuries around the genitalia. But it appears that she screamed and the attacker might have fled away, interrupted:
THE LATEST WHITECHAPEL MYSTERY. A WOMAN'S MEMORY GONE.
Malvina Haynes, who received very serious injuries to her head and scalp on the night of Bank Holiday, has been from that time until Tuesday lying quite unconscious at the London Hospital {...}
SCREAMS WERE SHORTLY HEARD in the vicinity of Leman Street Railway Station. A constable then discovered Mrs. Haynes lying insensible on the ground in a pool of blood. Besides her brain being affected by the injury, Mrs. Haynes is suffering from a scalp wound of rather an extensive character.

{...} certain information which casually passed from the woman's lips may perhaps LEAD TO A CLUE respecting the would-be murderer. {...} A man who was said to have been near the unfortunate woman at the time of the occurrence, and who resided in the district, has since left the neighbourhood. The police hope that he may come forward, as his testimony might aid the ends of justice, by relating what he saw of the outrage.
No chance that anyone might have found anything further pertaining to this in subsequent press reports?

And by the by, the Detective-sergeant is spelled "William New". Someone spelled him "Nue" earlier in this thread, which made me wonder if there were Chinamen in the Victorian Police corps.

[Errata]

Traumatic peritonitis?

It's certainly possible. People do get beaten so badly that organs rupture, and the blunt object could easily have ruptured the bladder. The only reason I commented on it was that a great deal of attention was put on a spectacular injury, the tearing of the perineum. But that happens regularly though not as horribly in the course of womankind, so the injury in and of itself would not be unusual. Being beaten so badly that organs rupture is far more rare in a hospital setting.

[Cogidubnus]

We seem to have a difference of opinion even on date of death...As has been remarked already the certificate on-site is so tiny as to be unreadable - one source here says the certificate reads 4th April. The A-Z says 5th April whilst Wiki asserts she was attacked on the third and died 4 days later.

I'd always assumed the A-Z to be right as it tied in with the Coroner notifying the police on 6th April, but now, I'm to say the least, confused...

Dave

[Debra A]

It's certainly possible. People do get beaten so badly that organs rupture, and the blunt object could easily have ruptured the bladder. The only reason I commented on it was that a great deal of attention was put on a spectacular injury, the tearing of the perineum. But that happens regularly though not as horribly in the course of womankind, so the injury in and of itself would not be unusual. Being beaten so badly that organs rupture is far more rare in a hospital setting.

I don't know if you caught my second post, Errata, but this time I remembered to include the link!
From the medical text I linked to it looks to me like peritonitis can certainly be brought about by vaginal injury and doesn't seem to rule out the use of a blunt instument used internally, with force, as a cause either?