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  • #76
    Originally posted by Debra A View Post
    The women in these cases seemed to have no qualms about admitting they were prostitutes ...
    Hi Debs,

    I believe a key component of the Emma Smith saga is the fact that she gave her account of the circumstances surrounding her attack, when on the verge of falling under the care of the authorities; i.e. becoming a ward of the state, so to speak. Admitting that she was destitute, and engaged in prostitution at the time of her attack, would invariably have sealed her fate: Removal to Whitechapel Union Workhouse, upon recovery.

    Having said that: I am inclined to believe that Emma Smith fabricated the circumstances surrounding her attack - its allegedly random nature; its alleged involvement of three or four men, unbeknown to Smith herself; its alleged location - in order to avoid self incrimination and passage to the Union Workhouse.

    Also; we shouldn't feel the need for these sorts of assurances that there were gangs in the Whitechapel area, anymore than we should feel the need for assurances that there was graffiti on many a wall in the same vicinity. Of course there were gangs in the Whitechapel area !!!

    Even in light of the George Street connection and relatively close time-proximity (i.e. 11/87 - 4/88); Emily Horsnell's account of the circumstances surrounding her attack should not be seen as any sort of assurance of the believability of Emma Smith's 'story' - anymore than pictures of graffiti on walls in Berner Street, St. George in the East (1909) and Dorset Street, Christ Church Spitalfields (1928) should be seen as assurances that there was graffiti aplenty on the walls of a relatively pristine four-year-old model dwelling, inhabited by comparatively orderly people and situated in a recently re-developed Goulston Street, St. Mary Whitechapel, in 1888.

    Lastly; my inclination to believe that Smith fabricated her story should not be seen as an attempt on my part to connect her attack to those of JtR. I see no reason to make that connection: None whatsoever !!! And I am totally perplexed by the Margaret Hames connection.


    Colin Click image for larger version

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    Last edited by ; 08-18-2008, 06:26 PM.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Septic Blue View Post
      Even in light of the George Street connection and relatively close time-proximity (i.e. 11/87 - 4/88); Emily Horsnell's account of the circumstances surrounding her attack should not be seen as any sort of assurance of the believability of Emma Smith's 'story' - anymore than pictures of graffiti on walls in Berner Street, St. George in the East (1909) and Dorset Street, Christ Church Spitalfields (1928) should be seen as assurances that there was graffiti aplenty on the walls of a relatively pristine four-year-old model dwelling, inhabited by comparatively orderly people and situated in a recently re-developed Goulston Street, St. Mary Whitechapel, in 1888.
      No assurance, you're right Colin!
      But personally I can't write off these other cases as mere coincidence either.

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Mike Covell View Post
        Right, not sure if any of these are right but the names and dates tally,

        1881 Census
        Name: Emily Horsnell
        Age: 20
        Estimated Birth Year: abt 1861
        Relation: Wife
        Spouse's Name: Alfred
        ...Yup! That's the one I found, Mike.
        Kind regards, Sam Flynn

        "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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        • #79
          Originally posted by Septic Blue View Post

          Even in light of the George Street connection and relatively close time-proximity (i.e. 11/87 - 4/88); Emily Horsnell's account of the circumstances surrounding her attack should not be seen as any sort of assurance of the believability of Emma Smith's 'story'
          Colin [ATTACH]2962[/ATTACH]
          True about the circumstances, but Horsnail's injuries are very similar to those of Emma Smith, and, thanks to Debra, it's easier now to disconnect Emma's case from those of Millwood and Wilson, who have been injured by a knife.

          Amitiés,
          David
          Last edited by DVV; 08-20-2008, 02:32 AM.

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          • #80
            Originally posted by Dan Norder View Post
            Ah, OK, so that's at least three new ones to consider...
            Well Dan, AP's Agnes Jacques find was not in the same area and out of a useful timeframe probably, but what it does illustrate is a similar motiveless gang attack on a woman late at night by very young men (two were only 16) resulting in death from her injuries, and a sexual assault element to it as well....similar to Emma's 'story'
            The full details aren't available as the Old Bailey site deems the details unfit for publication again.

            I'm still intrigued why the Pall Mall Gazette of 10 Nov 1888 was adamant that
            there was a victim before Emma Smith.

            No. 1 Impaled with an iron stake.
            unknown woman found murdered near Osborne street Whitechapel, an iron stake thrust into her person...
            ...in the lists that appear in the morning papers she is confused with the victim of Easter Tuesday, Emma Smith
            whose death was not caused by an iron stake, but by repeated outrage of the worst kind.

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            • #81
              Hey Debs,

              I think the standard explanation -- that somebody misremembered Margaret Hayes' reference to being attacked around Christmas 1887 when she was interviewed in relation to the death of Emma Elizabeth Smith and conflated Hayes' attack date with Smith's injuries -- still works. It sounds like the PMG writer heard about this alleged Boxing Day 1887 killing and insists that it musts be real because he believes Smith to have been killed as a result of a particularly violent gang rape and not by some other object, so the person killed by the foreign object must be, in his mind, the earlier alleged killing.

              On the other hand, it could be that some pre-1888 incidents were known by this PMG source. That paper seemed to have a bit more of an interest in unsolved murders and attacks than some others. For example, as far as I know it's the only contemporary source that argued for a possibility of a link between the Burton Crescent and Artillery Square prostitute murders in the early 1880s. Most other sources didn't spend much time on those.

              Dan Norder
              Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
              Web site: www.RipperNotes.com - Email: dannorder@gmail.com

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              • #82
                I had always thought that Emma Smith was unlikely to have been a Ripper victim...until recently. The suspect I now believe to be the Ripper, who I am writing about in a book, had a criminal background with a gang in Whitechapel, so I came to a similar sort of conclusion that Charles van Onselen has (though I didn't know of his theory) and have been thinking that Emma was killed by a gang that included "Jack".
                Best regards,
                Adam


                "They assumed Kelly was the last... they assumed wrong" - Me

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                • #83
                  Sounds like a botched theft, but as previously pointed out: 'why not rob someone worth robbing?' We all have to remember that this is Whitechapel we're talking about. Notorious for being the most depraved district in all London at this time, with roughly 1600 prostitutes and 62 brothels all in Whitechapel alone. This sounds like an isolated incident, and I'm quite frankly surprised that more weren't killed during this time period under circumstances similar to Emma Smith's. The differing circumstances and suspects clearly eliminates her as a ripper victim. But because she was an 'unfortunate' she was included among the other vics. Same with Martha Tabram who was stabbed 39 times with no mutilation or slit throat, making it most likely a gang killing.

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                  • #84
                    Slysnide writes:

                    "Same with Martha Tabram who was stabbed 39 times with no mutilation or slit throat, making it most likely a gang killing."

                    We have the doctor who managed the Tabram case telling us that 38 out of the 39 stabs may well have been inflicted by the same blade.

                    What were the rest of the gang doing? Standing around, cheering the stabber on? Nope - for it was a silent deed.

                    Gang deeds, though, tend not to be silent.

                    Most Ripperologists have Tabram down as a one-man killing. Some have two men involved, due to the fact that two blades were used.

                    Only the fewest suggest a whole, completely silent gang on that first floor landing.

                    The best,
                    Fisherman

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                    • #85
                      Hi Slysnide and welcome to the discussion,

                      Originally posted by slysnide View Post
                      We all have to remember that this is Whitechapel we're talking about. Notorious for being the most depraved district in all London at this time, with roughly 1600 prostitutes and 62 brothels all in Whitechapel alone. This sounds like an isolated incident, and I'm quite frankly surprised that more weren't killed during this time period under circumstances similar to Emma Smith's.
                      At first glance it does seem surprising there weren't more murders. But back then you were executed if guilty of murder. It was a big deterrent. Everybody knew what a noose was.

                      Again, welcome,

                      Roy
                      Sink the Bismark

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                      • #86
                        Oh and one more thing, it had only been twenty years since public executions were stopped in the UK. That's not very long. So not only the idea of being hanged, but hanged in public, the ultimate shame, was strongly ingrained in the minds of potential reprobates.

                        So yes, murder was rare.

                        Roy
                        Sink the Bismark

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                        • #87
                          The only part of Emma Smiths story that sounds incredulous is that she walked past policemen to get some medical attention. But if she feared retribution from the gang for reporting the crime, then it can alleviate that concern.

                          Cheers all.

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                          • #88
                            I hadn't known that one blade was responsible for 38 of the 39 Fisherman, so that's quite interesting news. Certainly leaves plenty of room for motive. To me I guess it seemed to stab someone that many times meant that the killer or killers wanted to make a point. A rage killing it seems. For gangs would go overboard to send a message, but since a lone killer seems to be responsible, then this is even more perplexing. Granted there'd be no place to drop the body in such a large and overpopulated city. Or at least one that had wounds severe enough such that it'd be hard for the transportation of the body to go unnoticed. After all, the Manson killings had stab wounds numbering 28 & 51 for the 'outdoor' victims which was the result of speed and the intention to send a message. But for a lone killer who's assumably not a narcissist to go all out on Martha makes the reason for going overboard extremely odd, unless the killer was on drugs at the time, or advised by a gang to do so because she and others had been failing to pay their dues as prostitutes paid gangs for protection. Of course this is sheer conjecture as there's no evidence to prove this theory.

                            And good point Roy, murder would still be unfavorable over most other options. And thanks for the welcome.

                            As for the ripper, he's got an MO of preying on prostitutes in their forties whom are walking about in the city at strange hours of the night unguarded, making them easy targets. And he was a narcissist as he seemed to want the bodies to be noticed more than most, and at least 3 letters to the press & police of the hundreds received are believed to be authentic. Kind of like what Zodiac did in SF (which I'm also rather knowledgeable on). Though there's also speculation that morticians removed the missing organs afterwards, and that the police reports were written thereafter. And since a mortician wouldn't jot down that he'd taken organs then the mistake would make sense. Point being that it'd make the skill level of the ripper seem questionable. This theory being one I've recently come upon in the past week. Doctor or not, it's still hard to remove 3 organs with one slash in the dark. And another thing, Mary Jeanette Kelly doesn't fit his MO as being 24 or 25 and found indoors with no surgical precision used. The heart may have been mutilated beyond recognition which would constitute the report that it was missing. Point once again being that MJK & Martha Tabram don't fit the MO by method of death, among other things.
                            Last edited by slysnide; 10-05-2009, 04:35 AM. Reason: typos

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                            • #89
                              letters

                              Hello. You may wish to rethink those letters.

                              LC

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                              • #90
                                You mean the 3 I referred to? I agree that they're hard to authenticate, but half a human kidney included in the "From Hell" letter is incriminating as they're not easily obtained by the general public for a hoax. And since it was dated to be dead for 2wks which was the time lapse since the previous killings, then for someone to keep it lying around to use as a hoax 2wks later is decidedly odd. Though the poor grammar is also key, as the "From Hell" letter was the most poorly written of the 3 that are suspected to be authentic. That grammar and possesion of half a kidney is not a reasonable combination, thus implying JTR wanted to throw them off. Unless of course a crazed person gutted a kidney, kept it for 2wks, and then mailed it in.

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