Due date

[Debra A]

Yes I might if it was an issue that you had gone public with and could not be conclusively proved and there were other plausible explanations for the public to consider
The public have been misled far to long by what they have seen and read. The old previously accepted fact do not now stand up to close scrutiny

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Fisherman]

Yes I might if it was an issue that you had gone public with and could not be conclusively proved and there were other plausible explanations for the public to consider
The public have been misled far to long by what they have seen and read. The old previously accepted fact do not now stand up to close scrutiny

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Do you really think that anything you have marketed out here has had any impact at all on how people consider the torso cases a string of murders perpetrated by the same person? If anything, you have cemented that view by your way of arguing, Trevor.

[Trevor Marriott]

That could be the reason. I'd also have to check back to see if some of the different dates given were given by Elizabeth's family and friends and not Faircloth himself.

I didn't know about the mills at Horsleydown and near the Albert Bridge. Thanks for that.

I would write an article but Trevor would probably rip it off for another revised version of his book

Yes I might if it was an issue that you had gone public with and could not be conclusively proved and there were other plausible explanations for the public to consider
The public have been misled far to long by what they have seen and read. The old previously accepted fact do not now stand up to close scrutiny

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Debra A]

There doesn't seem like there was actual discrepancy. Joshua must have inadvertently hit on a report that had it wrong. According to the majority of newspapers I looked at, Faircloth also said Elizabeth was 'about' 4 months advanced when he left her on April 28th. That's consistent with conception some time in December and a confinement in September, give or take., which is what the doctors and her mother said too.

[Errata]

Post mortem due dates with the fetus absent is actually pretty difficult. There's an equation as to how much the uterus expands per month of pregnancy, and with the figures given on her uterus (I'm remembering this from years ago, so don't quote me) I think I put her at 7 months when she died. But thats assuming a single fetus. And it could have been twins. Or malnourishment could have severely stunted the babies development, making her full term with a fetus several months too small. And possibly unviable.

A woman calculates her pregnancy from her last period. Unfortunately malnutrition, drinking, drug use, certain professions, even disease cause fairly routine irregularity in the cycles of poor women. So she may have no goten her period because she was ill, and in fact gotten pregnant a month or two later, throwing off the count. Doctors go by uterine size if they have the uterus and are fairly confident it is generally intact. They also go by the development of the placenta if they have that. Jackson's uterus may not have been intact. Well it wasn't, in fact. And I don't think they found the placenta. So a doctor may be guessing. Probably a good guess, but still a guess.

And a woman contemplating abortion may well shift some dates around when talking to her mother so that the "unexpected" loss of the pregnancy still to come is more believable and possibly less painful. Bump out her due date a few months so a miscarriage appears to come earlier. So the mother may have gotten bad information.

To know within say a week, you really need the fetus. Even a small malnourished fetus has passed certain developmental markers capable of dating the pregnancy. Other wise go with a doc's guess, annd know that it has a + or - a month attached to it potentially.

[Debra A]

I've only been going by the easily accessible online reports on this site, so have only come across the one date so far.
I guess 8 could easily be mistaken or mistranscribed for 5, depending on handwriting, so Faircloth might have said 5 months...?

That is interesting stuff about the metal marks ( l must join your fan club!). He described himself as a millstone grinder and millworker, so I presume he would have done any other jobs once the millstones were in good nick. Spookily, there was a flour mill by Albert Bridge beside Battersea Park, and another at Horsleydown - just a coincidence?

Good heavens! You really should write all this stuff down properly, Debra, this is fascinating.

That could be the reason. I'd also have to check back to see if some of the different dates given were given by Elizabeth's family and friends and not Faircloth himself.

I didn't know about the mills at Horsleydown and near the Albert Bridge. Thanks for that.

I would write an article but Trevor would probably rip it off for another revised version of his book

[Trevor Marriott]

I've only been going by the easily accessible online reports on this site, so have only come across the one date so far.
I guess 8 could easily be mistaken or mistranscribed for 5, depending on handwriting, so Faircloth might have said 5 months...?

That is interesting stuff about the metal marks ( l must join your fan club!). He described himself as a millstone grinder and millworker, so I presume he would have done any other jobs once the millstones were in good nick. Spookily, there was a flour mill by Albert Bridge beside Battersea Park, and another at Horsleydown - just a coincidence?

Good heavens! You really should write all this stuff down properly, Debra, this is fascinating.

Fascinating yes, shame he an alibi which was checked out by the police.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Joshua Rogan]

I've only been going by the easily accessible online reports on this site, so have only come across the one date so far.
I guess 8 could easily be mistaken or mistranscribed for 5, depending on handwriting, so Faircloth might have said 5 months...?

That is interesting stuff about the metal marks ( l must join your fan club!). He described himself as a millstone grinder and millworker, so I presume he would have done any other jobs once the millstones were in good nick. Spookily, there was a flour mill by Albert Bridge beside Battersea Park, and another at Horsleydown - just a coincidence?

Good heavens! You really should write all this stuff down properly, Debra, this is fascinating.

[Debra A]

Faircloth also claimed he couldn't read or write and that's why he hadn't come forward when the story hit the papers but one person who knew him from Ipswich thought that wasn't true. He'd said the same at the flour mill he was working at but he'd been seen often looking at a notebook he carried in his pocket as if reading. He appears to have signed his army attestation papers though, although he could have just practised his own signature.

He also caused a fuss once when a photographer came by the mill and took a group picture of the workers. When the photograph was processed and shown to them all at a later date, Faircloth had shown some annoyance that he was in the front and one of the most prominent in the picture. He had bad hair too apparently, poor sod...stuck up like a brush!

Elizabeth threw a brush at him and blacked his eyes at Ipswich and Faircloth wouldn't go in to work, pretending instead he'd been at a funeral some distance away and waiting until the bruising died down. One of his workmates spotted him wandering about when he was supposed to be away. Some of the people who worked with him certainly thought him a bit odd.

[Debra A]

The same landlady (Kate Paine) said Lizzie J was 5 months pregnant at the end of April, so that is certainly in line with her mum and the doctors' estimates, rather than Faircloth's.
When you say Faircloth 'admitted' first meeting Liz on 6th Oct, is that a later admission, after his inquest statement of "about the end of last November"? Or am I confused?

It depends which of the inquests account you read. Some say Sept, some say November and then others give the specific 6th October. It's a strange thing to get wrong in reporting isn't it as it wouldn't involve mishearing anything?

In some accounts Faircloth is also quoted as saying Elizabeth was 4 months gone when they parted, just after they lived together in Whitechapel then Millwall. They parted on 28th April, which he said was the second Sunday after Good Friday. IIRC

[Debra A]

Mmm, he ticks quite a few boxes on the Ripper description list, although he seems a more flamboyant dresser. Shame he's got such a good alibi!

Here's a description from a former landlady;

"She remembered the man Fairclough, otherwise known as Smith, well, and had thus described him to the police:--Age about 37; height, 5ft. 9in.; complexion, fair; clean shaven; slightly pitted with smallpox, and deaf. His nose was twisted as if it had been broken, and he was broad shouldered, and had “steelmarks” on the left hand. When last she saw him he was dressed in a light green and black stripped jacket, light striped trousers, with a piece of light check sewn into the waist. He also had on a blue and white striped Oxford shirt, a white muffler, laced boots, light gray or mouse-coloured felt hat, and also carried a soft cap with a peak of the same material."

Interesting that he had two hats (including a ubiquitous peaked cap!)

Also, have you any idea what "steelmarks" could be? Butchers would use a steel (basically a file) for sharpening knives, but how would one of those leave distinctive marks? Especially as he was a mill worker.

He also had a work outfit which was described at the inquest as a pilot jack and corduroy trousers. He wore one pair of trousers over the other.

He was a millstone grinder, Joshua. He worked on making the huge stones used to mill flour, shaping grooves and applying a metal rim. It was a family trade, a lot of his family were in the flour milling and millstone grinding trade in Isle of Ely, Cambridgeshire , although I believe I found one brother living in close to where the first parts of Elizabeth's body surfaced in Horsleydown, who was a farrier. John travelled to different flour mills over the country looking for the work and was also a peddlar
.
The marks were knows as 'metal marks' and caused by fragments of the outer metal flying off and embedding into the backs of the hands and wrists of the grinder.The phrase 'show us your metal' supposedly originates with the millstone grinders- a way to prove your experience in the job by the amount of metal marks on your hands.

[Joshua Rogan]

The same landlady (Kate Paine) said Lizzie J was 5 months pregnant at the end of April, so that is certainly in line with her mum and the doctors' estimates, rather than Faircloth's.
When you say Faircloth 'admitted' first meeting Liz on 6th Oct, is that a later admission, after his inquest statement of "about the end of last November"? Or am I confused?

[Joshua Rogan]

Mmm, he ticks quite a few boxes on the Ripper description list, although he seems a more flamboyant dresser. Shame he's got such a good alibi!

Here's a description from a former landlady;

"She remembered the man Fairclough, otherwise known as Smith, well, and had thus described him to the police:--Age about 37; height, 5ft. 9in.; complexion, fair; clean shaven; slightly pitted with smallpox, and deaf. His nose was twisted as if it had been broken, and he was broad shouldered, and had “steelmarks” on the left hand. When last she saw him he was dressed in a light green and black stripped jacket, light striped trousers, with a piece of light check sewn into the waist. He also had on a blue and white striped Oxford shirt, a white muffler, laced boots, light gray or mouse-coloured felt hat, and also carried a soft cap with a peak of the same material."

Interesting that he had two hats (including a ubiquitous peaked cap!)

Also, have you any idea what "steelmarks" could be? Butchers would use a steel (basically a file) for sharpening knives, but how would one of those leave distinctive marks? Especially as he was a mill worker.

[Debra A]

Thanks Debra!
I didn't know that Faircloth denied being the father, where did you find that out? It makes sense, in that case, that he would try to make out that she was already pregnant when they met.

I read it the newspapers a long time ago, Joshua. He also said Elizabeth had talked of 'shunting' the child. I'd have to look back to find it again. There was quite a bit of press about Elizabeth and John's relationship. He was quite a strange character with broad shoulders and pock marked skin. He'd been an army deserter for seven years and wasn't apprehended until 1887 when he was imprisoned for a few months as punishment. He used to hit Elizabeth and she had also been violent towards him. His army records show he had been treated for syphilis and was finally given a medical discharge when apprehended because he was almost completely deaf due to perforated ear drums he'd had since childhood.

[Joshua Rogan]

Thanks Debra!
I didn't know that Faircloth denied being the father, where did you find that out? It makes sense, in that case, that he would try to make out that she was already pregnant when they met.