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  • Prater's stairs

    Following on from an active thread on these forums at the moment I would like to talk about the issue of Prater's stairs in the hope of arriving at a consensus of their configuration and position (if possible).

    I have created a simple 3D of No.13 which, at the moment, has the stairs in an arbitrary position running parallel up against the partition wall.

    Would this be a useful tool to develop further. What should be included and what would work better?
    http://autumnofterror.com/13/13.html

    (opens in Internet Explorer, Mozilla or Opera Browsers)
    (Chrome Browser not supported)
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  • #2
    Originally posted by richardh View Post
    Following on from an active thread on these forums at the moment I would like to talk about the issue of Prater's stairs in the hope of arriving at a consensus of their configuration and position (if possible).

    I have created a simple 3D of No.13 which, at the moment, has the stairs in an arbitrary position running parallel up against the partition wall.

    Would this be a useful tool to develop further. What should be included and what would work better?
    http://autumnofterror.com/13/13.html

    (opens in Internet Explorer, Mozilla or Opera Browsers)
    (Chrome Browser not supported)
    I can't open it, But I have an issue with them running parallel to the partition wall.

    It goes like this.

    If the ceiling was 8 foot high and the stairs were pretty much standard with an 8 inch tread and a 6" riser, we need 15 stairs to go up 8 foot. 15 at 8 inches each is 120 inches or ten foot. If we add a three foot landing at the top of the stairs we are now out to 13 foot, all in a room either 12 or 15 foot across, it's tight, unless the stairs turn back on themselves. If they turn back on themselves they would lower the height just over the head of Mary's bed. If in the other hand they turn back on themselves, effectively cutting into Pratters room it makes her room incredibly small.

    A tread narrower than 8" is very very narrow, even old 8" ones are a pain to go up and down, and a riser over 6" is a steep old climb.


    I am assuming that Pratters doorway was in that left hand corner, looking from Dorset street.

    If I was any Goid at posting drawings I'd draw it.

    My chambers are in an old 1870s townhouse I measured those stairs.
    G U T

    There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

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    • #3
      I'll knock up some 3D screenshots and post them here later tonight. We can then start positioning doorways, stairs, landings etc.

      Why couldn't you open the 3D window GUT? was it broke?

      I've tested it on various PCs and it opened okay. It's a very small file and opens very quickly.

      thanks

      ps
      Victorian houses tended to have very high ceilings.
      pps
      I always assumed Prater's door would be on the right looking at it from the street - so stairs running parallel to the partition (from Prater's passage entrance (ooh err!) to a short landing with Prater's room door on the left (going up the stairs).

      I'll create a screenshot of what I mean.
      Last edited by richardh; 12-07-2015, 01:53 AM.
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      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by richardh View Post
        I'll knock up some 3D screenshots and post them here later tonight. We can then start positioning doorways, stairs, landings etc.

        Why couldn't you open the 3D window GUT? was it broke?

        I've tested it on various PCs and it opened okay. It's a very small file and opens very quickly.

        thanks

        ps
        Victorian houses tended to have very high ceilings.
        pps
        I always assumed Prater's door would be on the right looking at it from the street - so stairs running parallel to the partition (from Prater's passage entrance (ooh err!) to a short landing with Prater's room door on the left (going up the stairs).

        I'll create a screenshot of what I mean.

        Thanks Richard.

        I think because I've only got Chrome at the moment.
        G U T

        There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by richardh View Post
          I'll knock up some 3D screenshots and post them here later tonight. We can then start positioning doorways, stairs, landings etc.

          Why couldn't you open the 3D window GUT? was it broke?

          I've tested it on various PCs and it opened okay. It's a very small file and opens very quickly.

          thanks

          ps
          Victorian houses tended to have very high ceilings.
          pps
          I always assumed Prater's door would be on the right looking at it from the street - so stairs running parallel to the partition (from Prater's passage entrance (ooh err!) to a short landing with Prater's room door on the left (going up the stairs).

          I'll create a screenshot of what I mean.
          I agree about higher ceilings, but that only makes the run longer.

          Every plan of the room ive seen (and I know they are only guesses) seems to have the top of the stairs at the left.

          But I just can't see it working without a turn in the stairs somewhere.
          G U T

          There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

          Comment


          • #6
            I can't see the 3D on my iPad, just a bit of text. Does it only work on Windows machines?

            I'm not sure where the stairs would be, but there would have to be some sort of landing, I think. As I understand it, there were two rooms on each of the three floors above the shed, and Prater's room, being no. 20, would have been on the top floor (assuming the numbering followed on from the rest of Miller's Court).

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
              I can't see the 3D on my iPad, just a bit of text. Does it only work on Windows machines?

              I'm not sure where the stairs would be, but there would have to be some sort of landing, I think. As I understand it, there were two rooms on each of the three floors above the shed, and Prater's room, being no. 20, would have been on the top floor (assuming the numbering followed on from the rest of Miller's Court).
              If Praters room was the highest number, then there are 6 more rooms (14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19) to account for somewhere in No.26 Dorset St. We might expect the room directly above No. 13 to be 14, in keeping with the rest of the court (odd number on ground floor).

              That being the case we would expect the last room, Praters room, to be at the top of the house, but apparently it was not.
              Praters room was over the shed, overlooking Dorset St.

              Elizabeth Prater, the occupant of the first floor front room,

              Daily Telegraph. Nov 10

              (Re: Kelly) She lived in No. 13 room, and mine is No. 20, which is almost over hers.
              Star. Nov 10

              I live at 20 Room, in Miller's-court, above the shed.

              Daily Telegraph Nov 13

              The numbering of rooms inside 26 must have been unconventional.
              Last edited by Wickerman; 12-07-2015, 01:33 PM.
              Regards, Jon S.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
                That being the case we would expect the last room, Praters room, to be at the top of the house, but apparently it was not.
                Praters room was over the shed, overlooking Dorset St.
                Indeed she was, Jon. Nice to know I'm not the only one who holds that opinion; indeed I have no doubt that, if Prater were here now, she'd share the same view!
                Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                Comment


                • #9
                  So who was living in the room directly above No. 13 at that time?
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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                    Indeed she was, Jon. Nice to know I'm not the only one who holds that opinion; indeed I have no doubt that, if Prater were here now, she'd share the same view!
                    Hi Sam.
                    It's more than opinion though isn't it, we have there in black and white, "first floor front room"...."over the shed".

                    Originally posted by richardh View Post
                    So who was living in the room directly above No. 13 at that time?
                    We have no idea Richard.
                    Even the 1891 census does not give occupants of every room.
                    Regards, Jon S.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by richardh View Post
                      So who was living in the room directly above No. 13 at that time?
                      According to the Telegraph article cited by Wickerman above, an un-named couple;

                      "...and the couple in the room overhead had slept soundly without being awakened..."

                      Presumably they are unknown because they didn't have anything to tell the police or reporters. Unless anyone else has identified them?

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                      • #12
                        hmmm
                        That makes the stairs and doors layout to Prater's room a bit more complicated and open to a many possible configurations.
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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
                          Hi Sam.
                          It's more than opinion though isn't it, we have there in black and white, [I]"first floor front room"
                          Is that the only source for it? Prater herself doesn't say as much, as far as I can see. 'Over the shed' could technically refer to any of the 6 rooms. As could 'almost over' Mary's room. So it could be a supposition by the Telegraph, which seems to be riddled with errors, although it also has some interesting nuggets too (curiously, both it and the Star name Bowyer as John, not Thomas).

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                          • #14
                            Praters room may well have been partially over Marys room despite being at the front of the house, if you look at the sketches from inside the courtyard there is a window in the archway over the stone passage, joining 26 and 27. That may well have been a small alcove in the rear of her room..and that window is where I'll bet she heard the cry through.
                            Michael Richards

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
                              ...So it could be a supposition by the Telegraph,...
                              With 6-8 rooms in the building, on what grounds would you write precisely which room Prater lived in?

                              If they didn't know, what reason would a reporter have to place her in that room?
                              Regards, Jon S.

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