Prater's stairs

[Robert St Devil]

Hi steve. Yea, i got that. They only had 1871 of the london daily telegraph. Morning post kinda gets into the description but then again doesnt. Still digging.

[Elamarna]

did same as you, paid for a month, again found nothing else.
I note the times and telegraph are not really on that site.

as you say, we keep digging, but not convinced will get anything definitive on the layout. mainly because they kept the press out of the court as i understand it

cheers

Steve

[richardh]

Okay:
Here is the (Stephen) Thomas Plan - updated to move the store room wall to the correct position.



And below is the Goad Plan for your opinions & feedback please:
(shaded dark red = partitions)



N.B: those two images are quite big (file size) so they might skip a bit.

[Wickerman]

Well done Richard.

With the Goad version, I'm sure you have satisfied the various requirements brought out of the Kate Marshall case for the upstairs (2nd floor) layout.
There's one detail that comes from Praters own statement that I don't see satisfied.

This also concern's the shape of the front room 'shed', it being an 'L' shape.
The issue is, what Mrs Prater said:
" I should have seen a glimmer of light in going up the stairs if there had been a light in deceased's room, but I noticed none."

With that perpendicular wall running back from the 'shed' partition, it seems to cut off any sight of the back of Kelly's room from anyone ascending the stairs.
Personally, I don't think the 'shed' room was an 'L' shape.
I think Prater has to be able to see the back of Kelly's room where her partition is as she climbs the stairs.

If you pushed that perpendicular wall more to the middle of the house, sufficient that someone could walk around the bottom of the stairs into the space behind Kelly's room, that would create a line of sight for someone climbing the stairs?

[richardh]

Thanks Jon,

"If you pushed that perpendicular wall more to the middle of the house, sufficient that someone could walk around the bottom of the stairs into the space behind Kelly's room, that would create a line of sight for someone climbing the stairs?"

But wouldn't that create a waste of empty space between the back of the partition and the back wall of the shed? what would that empty space be used for? people crammed in would surely utilise every bit of space.

The partition IS visible as you ascend the stairs - well the bit that I would say was the blocked-up door as seen in MJK1. So glimmers of light would creep from #13 IMO

Well done Richard.

With the Goad version, I'm sure you have satisfied the various requirements brought out of the Kate Marshall case for the upstairs (2nd floor) layout.
There's one detail that comes from Praters own statement that I don't see satisfied.

This also concern's the shape of the front room 'shed', it being an 'L' shape.
The issue is, what Mrs Prater said:
" I should have seen a glimmer of light in going up the stairs if there had been a light in deceased's room, but I noticed none."

With that perpendicular wall running back from the 'shed' partition, it seems to cut off any sight of the back of Kelly's room from anyone ascending the stairs.
Personally, I don't think the 'shed' room was an 'L' shape.
I think Prater has to be able to see the back of Kelly's room where her partition is as she climbs the stairs.

If you pushed that perpendicular wall more to the middle of the house, sufficient that someone could walk around the bottom of the stairs into the space behind Kelly's room, that would create a line of sight for someone climbing the stairs?

[GUT]

I'm still puzzled by the two sets of stairs.

[richardh]

GUT
I agree that it does look and seem odd to have an entirely self-contained set of stairs behind the partition wall but it's based on Stephen's (Thomas') drawing and he no doubt has an explanation and a logic behind for his plan.

Hopeful he can shed some light on it.

Having said that, if the partition was put there for the reason of constructing stairs then surely it would mean that #13 was 3 ft narrower - IF the solid back wall on goad's shows the floor space of #13 to be around 15 x 10 ( 15ft width of house & 10ft depth from #13's window's wall to the back wall of the shed). Making #13 15 x 7ft.

I'm still puzzled by the two sets of stairs.

[GUT]

Sorry Richard, understood that it came from Stephen's plan, I just can't see why they would have put them in, and the more I look at your models (which are fantastic) the more I get puzzled, it seems to me that either set takes up space that could be let to yet another poor tenant, thus bringing in more money

[richardh]

Agreed GUT
Stephen's plan does look like a lot of wasted room space and I can't really see a way to create more space using the Thomas Plan.

On the other hand the Goad Plan would actually easily accommodate two, possibility three more rooms in which to cram more families.
#20 for instance could be split into two and even #19 could be split to create two rooms of a similar size as the store room.
Downstairs it would be easy to split the shed into a back and front room with each room having its own access door. That would give 7 separate rooms for 7 sets of people/families as well as still having the shed at the front.

So you'd have:
#13 x 1
#19 x 2
#20 x 2
Store room x 1
downstairs back room created by partitioned shed x 1
Shed

7 paying tenants/families on just the two floors = quids in!

And all this without changing the Goad plan - just adding a few partitions.

Sorry Richard, understood that it came from Stephen's plan, I just can't see why they would have put them in, and the more I look at your models (which are fantastic) the more I get puzzled, it seems to me that either set takes up space that could be let to yet another poor tenant, thus bringing in more money

[Wickerman]

Thanks Jon,


But wouldn't that create a waste of empty space between the back of the partition and the back wall of the shed? what would that empty space be used for? people crammed in would surely utilise every bit of space.

The partition IS visible as you ascend the stairs - well the bit that I would say was the blocked-up door as seen in MJK1. So glimmers of light would creep from #13 IMO

Ok Richard, if you say a part of the partition (the sealed up portion of the wall) would be visible, then I accept it.

Is there enough space between the perpendicular wall and the stairs for someone to walk around?
I am considering the Hanbury St. photo showing access around those stairs which we have now determined are likely in the same location.

[Wickerman]

Sorry Richard, understood that it came from Stephen's plan, I just can't see why they would have put them in, and the more I look at your models (which are fantastic) the more I get puzzled, it seems to me that either set takes up space that could be let to yet another poor tenant, thus bringing in more money

No landlord, especially in the poorest quarters, is going to go through the labor & expense of have a second set of stairs built which only serve the same purpose as the stairs already available.

Those back walls of rooms 13 & 19 both had doors (openings) in them to the main stairs to begin with. So are we supposed to believe the landlord sealed up the openings, then built another set of stairs, and two walls, to allow access to that upstairs room (19), which he had just sealed up?

Sounds like a Laurel & Hardy sketch to me

[Wickerman]

Agreed GUT
Stephen's plan does look like a lot of wasted room space and I can't really see a way to create more space using the Thomas Plan.

Indeed.

On the other hand the Goad Plan would actually easily accommodate two, possibility three more rooms in which to cram more families.
#20 for instance could be split into two and even #19 could be split to create two rooms of a similar size as the store room.

Room 20 at the front had two windows overlooking Dorset St., so yes it could have been split into two rooms, each with a window however, the fireplace was only on the east wall, so a new west room would have no fireplace.

The back room (19) only had one window in the center of the back wall, plus the fireplace on the east wall.
A new west room would also have no fireplace and, what to do about a shared window?

Downstairs it would be easy to split the shed into a back and front room with each room having its own access door. That would give 7 separate rooms for 7 sets of people/families as well as still having the shed at the front.

It sounds like you are making use of that space beside the stairs afterall?


The storeroom upstairs apparently was considered available in emergencies (according to the Marshall case), no windows and no fireplace, just a roof over your head. Not a regular room available for rent, local bylaws may not have permitted its use as such.

And all this without changing the Goad plan - just adding a few partitions.

Thats the beauty of wooden partitions, they can be moved around to suit the needs. And, the reason why they are not shown on a fire insurance map.

[richardh]

Hmmmm! yes the Hanbury St. configuration. I can se what you mean now. A small alcove sort of thing that maybe was orignally a doorway into the 'salon' but was boarded up? Hence there would be much more of #13's partition to see from the stairs.

I like it.

Ok Richard, if you say a part of the partition (the sealed up portion of the wall) would be visible, then I accept it.

Is there enough space between the perpendicular wall and the stairs for someone to walk around?
I am considering the Hanbury St. photo showing access around those stairs which we have now determined are likely in the same location.

[Stephen Thomas]

I agree that it does look and seem odd to have an entirely self-contained set of stairs behind the partition wall but it's based on Stephen's (Thomas') drawing and he no doubt has an explanation and a logic behind for his plan.

Hopeful he can shed some light on it.

Hi Richard

Well I can but try but as the Good Book might have said, there's none so blind as them wot won't listen. My interest in this particular subject started around a decade ago when people tried to figure out the internal layout of#26 as well as the the layout of the court. Much good work was done with newspaper articles and drawings, contemporary maps and whatnot but what absolutely amazed me was the fact that obviously clever people were completely incapable of visualising inevitable and logical layouts. One map that was posted amused me as it included a doorway that if anybody walked through they would fall into the stairwell and possibly die from their injuries.

More nonsense is appearing on this thread many years later. You ask why there is an extra staircase at the back of the house when there's a perfectly good staircase at the front of the house.This was explained at the time as due to the fact that the front door was locked and the ONLY way tenants could get to their rooms on the upper floors was via the back stairs we are discussing here.

As for the statement that there was plenty of spare space in the house to make extra rooms I'd like to propose an experiment for everybody here. It's very easy and only requires a blank sheet of A4, a pen or pencil and a ruler.

You're about to draw a map with a scale of 1/2 inch to 1 foot.

Kelly's room was described as being 12 foot wide and rather small but we can tell from maps and illustrations that this was the total house width and as you will see, Kelly's room was bigger than most rooms in the house.

So positioning your sheet of paper with the narrow side towards you.....

Draw a 6 inch line at the bottom then two 10 inch lines at right angles to both ends and then another 6 inch line at the top to make a 10x6 inch rectangle. Here you have all the brick walls of the main body of#26 Dorset Street excluding of course the 2 storey back extension.

Now in the top left of this rectangle draw a smaller rectangle 3 inch wide by 4 inch deep. Inside this rectangle write 'stairwell'. Next to this on the right make another rectangle 3 foot wide by 5 inch deep and inside write 'back room'.

Now starting at the bottom make another rectangle 6 inch wide and 5 inch deep and write 'front room' inside of it.

There remains a small rectangle 3 inch x 1 and a half inch This is the landing and you might want to put in doorways to the front room and back room.

This is the 'footprint' of the house and is a plan of the top 3 floors. The front room on the ground floor would have been 3 foot less wide.

For the purposes of this thread we can assume that this is a plan of the first floor (USA second floor) and the doorway from the back room to Prater's stairs would of course be in the top right hand corner (horizontal).

What needs to be understood is that this building was very narrow and all the rooms quite small. If anyone has the DVD of the movie 10 Rillington Place about the serial killer Christie they can check out the layout of that house which is more or less identical to that of #26 Dorset Street.

[SuspectZero]

I used the Kate Marshall murder case from 1899, is that what you mean?

Yes, the Kate Marshall case. My mistake on the year - but the murder took place in late 1898, not 1899. There is a full account of it in the Illustrated Police news on 12/3/1898.