Prater's stairs

[Wickerman]

To be honest, I could have got the same shot from within the room too. I just feel that the window (sill) would have been a good place to compose that shot.

Quite so Richard.
There had to be a reason for this sketch.


Courtesy of Stewart Evans.

[Robert St Devil]

Hello Forum.
Unfortunately, I think consensus may be the only solution to the Mary Jane Kelly crime scene as i have read so many conflicting media reports that the truth may be lost to history.

Examples of conflicting reports:
1. Chas. Warren did or did not visit the crime scene.
2. Robert Anderson entered thru a window prior to the door being forced.
3. The bloodhounds arrived but could not grab a scent. OR. The bloodhounds did not show because they had bolted during the Surrey trials and were never recovered.

Mostly the reports of "the photographer" claim he started taking pictures of the room and court prior to the onset of the pm examination. The conditions for taking the pictures was not favourable; however, he obtained several negatives.

Only one report - Sheffield Daily telegraph - of the bed obstructing the door. No other mention of a secret door in my readings as of yet.

[richardh]

Thanks Jon & GUT

Here's a .gif update of the Goad Plan with things in place in #13 (bed, chair and partition correctly positioned).

This just gets better & better Richard.
Well done!

I especially like pic #2, and with that in mind, does this mean the passage door (Praters Door), moves a little closer to Kelly's room?

Jon
Do Prater's stairs HAVE to go in that direction? could there be alternatives that would allow Prater's door close to #13's door?

Is our aim to get Prater's door on the other side of the partition?

Also
I could do with some advice on the split between the shed and the stairs.

[GUT]

This just gets better & better Richard.
Well done!

I especially like pic #2, and with that in mind, does this mean the passage door (Praters Door), moves a little closer to Kelly's room?

Yep that'd hit the table.

[Wickerman]

And with that in mind here are the graphics:

in #3 & #4 I have placed the bed in the same position as it was in MJK 'bed' photo. Note that I had to position the camera from the big window in order to frame the image.
I am of the opinion that the photo was taken from outside the room looking through the big window. There wouldn't be enough space to get a big 'ol camera on a tripod inside the room, taking a photo from that position with the photographer struggling to position himself either behind the camera or looking down the waist level finder. Much better to prop the camera on the open window sill and stick some lights inside the room facing the bed.

In #5 & #6 you can see that the open door would indeed knock against a table.

Measurements are pretty accurate - just count the black and white segments (each = 1ft)

This just gets better & better Richard.
Well done!

I especially like pic #2, and with that in mind, does this mean the passage door (Praters Door), moves a little closer to Kelly's room?

[Wickerman]

I have,,
that is Wickermans opinion, the times are probably correct, but the photos could have been taken at the start of the post mortem.
Even if they were taken after 4pm, all that means is that artificial light was used, a position i have been constant on.

In all fairness Steve & Pierre, I had pointed out that there were two opportunities.

The press reported that the photographer arrived and took photo's after the preliminary examination, but before the post-mortem, which began at 2:00 pm, or thereabouts.
Then we read that the photographer removed his camera at 4:30, the body had been removed at 4:00 pm.
So it seems the camera was left in the room until 4:30.

The photographer in Victorian London is an artist, whereas the doctors & detectives are professionals. Class distinctions were very much observed in those days.
Once the post-mortem has commenced, the artist will wait until they are finished if he had been told to use his camera after the post-mortem, as he had before the P.M.

There must have been a reason for him to remain at the scene, otherwise we would expect him to have left once the P.M. began to go and process his plates.

[MysterySinger]

richardh - again just an opinion but I suspect depictions 5 and 6 are spot on. Great work.

[richardh]

To be honest, I could have got the same shot from within the room too. I just feel that the window (sill) would have been a good place to compose that shot.

Sam Flynn

I have no problem with either of your points, my suggestion regards post- processing was aimed at the contrast issue you suggested; which it obviously could effect.

It was overcast that day, and the light would probably have been ok until at least 4pm.
we have a window of about 2 -2.5 hours depending on exact time the door was forced to allow the taking of photos so no problems there I think.

I note in Richards last post he goes for MJK1 from outside via window.
am undecided on that myself.

regards

steve

[Elamarna]

Sam Flynn

I have no problem with either of your points, my suggestion regards post- processing was aimed at the contrast issue you suggested; which it obviously could effect.

It was overcast that day, and the light would probably have been ok until at least 4pm.
we have a window of about 2 -2.5 hours depending on exact time the door was forced to allow the taking of photos so no problems there I think.

I note in Richards last post he goes for MJK1 from outside via window.
am undecided on that myself.

regards

steve

[Sam Flynn]

However we are looking at a reprint or a reprint, We cannot know if the print has been tweaked in the dark room.

Post-processing wouldn't produce the very fine details we see in the "close-up", though, Steve.

Either way, it could have been taken late around 4pm with a long exposure as you say, but surely they would have used some artificial light?

I wouldn't rule that out, but the predominant impression I get is of a long exposure in soft - but not faint - light.

[richardh]

If we are right in our assumption that 'Prater's stairs' were in the position I have put them on the Goad plan, then it is perfectly reasonable to conclude that the 'opening' from #26 into #13 would be set right next to these stairs (or actually under the stairs as they turn right onto the upper floor - as per Hanbury St.). If the stairs were say 3-and-a-bit ft wide then the 'opening' would (should) be 4(ish) ft from the passageway wall. Why put an opening any where else along that wall and waste space next to the stairs?

And with that in mind here are the graphics:

in #3 & #4 I have placed the bed in the same position as it was in MJK 'bed' photo. Note that I had to position the camera from the big window in order to frame the image.
I am of the opinion that the photo was taken from outside the room looking through the big window. There wouldn't be enough space to get a big 'ol camera on a tripod inside the room, taking a photo from that position with the photographer struggling to position himself either behind the camera or looking down the waist level finder. Much better to prop the camera on the open window sill and stick some lights inside the room facing the bed.

In #5 & #6 you can see that the open door would indeed knock against a table.

Measurements are pretty accurate - just count the black and white segments (each = 1ft)

[Elamarna]

Richard

that seems perfectly logical.

[richardh]

If we are right in our assumption that 'Prater's stairs' were in the position I have put them on the Goad plan, then it is perfectly reasonable to conclude that the 'opening' from #26 into #13 would be set right next to these stairs (or actually under the stairs as they turn right onto the upper floor - as per Hanbury St.). If the stairs were say 3-and-a-bit ft wide then the 'opening' would (should) be 4(ish) ft from the passageway wall. Why put an opening any where else along that wall and waste space next to the stairs?

[Elamarna]

Itīs OK Steve. Think what you want. There are people with new ideas here. They are intelligent and can calculate.

Regards Pierre

Actually one person with old ideas,
all of the ideas you have mentioned have been discussed before.

if you had done any research you would know that my friend.
and again you don't answer any of the questions you are asked.

[Elamarna]

Hi Richardh,

According to Goadīs Fire Insurance Plan the distance from the wall to the right to the top of the beadsted (the distance you show in this picture) is 5,11 inches or 182 centimeters. So it is very accurate.

Regards, Pierre

Pierre,

The map does not show a bedstead does it?

if you are basing this measurement on the "door". There is a view that the opening is only indicative of openings on all floors and not the exact location.
You are aware of that view, held not just by myself, and you of course are entitled to disagree. The problem is that your interpretation is the only one you consider. others look at all.