When was the estimation of when Mary took her last meal of fish and potatoes?

[Harry D]

Yup. or looking for some attention.

That wouldn't be honest, though.

[Abby Normal]

The woman was found in Mary Kelly's room, identified by Mary Kelly's on/off lover, and Mary Kelly was never seen alive again after the murder. Ergo, it was Mary Kelly in the bed.

Eyewitness testimony is notoriously dodgy. If they honestly believe they saw Mary Kelly that morning, they were either mistaken about the day or mistaken about the person's identity.

Yup. or looking for some attention.

[packers stem]

Well I guess Maxwell and M Lewis saw Marys ghost then. JK ; )

seriously though Im having a hard time following your reasoning. If TOD is in the middle of the night, how can cox and M. Lewis be right?

Hi Abby
I'm not doubting Cox, I've no need to, she said she was going to sing and sing she most certainly did.
I'm not doubting maxwell or Maurice Lewis as they both knew her and it was broad daylight. Lewis was 'playing pitch and toss ' in the court.If it was an ideal place to play it I'm sure they did it often and probably bumped into Mary often.Maxwell spoke to her at length....strongest witnesses we've got in the whole jtr case by a country mile...only doubted because if you accept the ID by Barnett it doesn't make sense..
Read the press reports Abby,I know you don't like them but look at how many different reports have eagle eye McCarthy saying 'the poor woman was totally unrecognisable '..... Yet he gets to the inquest and it's 'yes,I'd recognise her dead or alive'.... Why did he change his mind...truth is he didn't, he told the truth to the press when he first spoke and described in great detail the injuries and the room.Most odd for someone who said 'he couldn't look at her'
Was he asked to ID the body officially and just changed his tune at that point?
So what do we have?Mary Kelly alive and a dead body...
I'll say again.. Think of the dishevelled woman seen by Kennedy

[Harry D]

The woman was found in Mary Kelly's room, identified by Mary Kelly's on/off lover, and Mary Kelly was never seen alive again after the murder. Ergo, it was Mary Kelly in the bed.

Eyewitness testimony is notoriously dodgy. If they honestly believe they saw Mary Kelly that morning, they were either mistaken about the day or mistaken about the person's identity.

[Abby Normal]

I have been interested in the Maxwell sighting of a sickened Mary Kelly since encountering it in Moore's graphic novel "From Hell". There is another scene in which Abberline is puzzling over the report of a laundress who has her own room, yet apparently also had an arrangement with Mary Kelly to use Mary's room at times. Why?

My thought was perhaps to avoid an abusive husband, if there was one. So perhaps the woman murdered in Mary's bed was not Mary? Perhaps Mary had left, and another woman had borrowed her room and bed.
Arguments against this speculation are:
1) Moore mixed history and fiction in his story, so we don't know if Abberline actually debated this point about the laundress.
2) Kelly identified the corpse as Mary Jane Kelly.
3) The various witnesses in the time-line before and after MJK's death.
4) The missing articles of clothing may have been burned or stolen, we don't know.

Hi PCdunn
with all due respect-not only are we veering off topic with this post, its going way off non-fiction.

Can we reel it back in? : )

[Pcdunn]

I have been interested in the Maxwell sighting of a sickened Mary Kelly since encountering it in Moore's graphic novel "From Hell". There is another scene in which Abberline is puzzling over the report of a laundress who has her own room, yet apparently also had an arrangement with Mary Kelly to use Mary's room at times. Why?

My thought was perhaps to avoid an abusive husband, if there was one. So perhaps the woman murdered in Mary's bed was not Mary? Perhaps Mary had left, and another woman had borrowed her room and bed.
Arguments against this speculation are:
1) Moore mixed history and fiction in his story, so we don't know if Abberline actually debated this point about the laundress.
2) Kelly identified the corpse as Mary Jane Kelly.
3) The various witnesses in the time-line before and after MJK's death.
4) The missing articles of clothing may have been burned or stolen, we don't know.

[Abby Normal]

The TOD is correct,this is determined by the Fish supper... I've no doubt that maxwell and Maurice Lewis(twice) were also correct....
...and back to the dishevelled looking woman seen by Kennedy

Well I guess Maxwell and M Lewis saw Marys ghost then. JK ; )

seriously though Im having a hard time following your reasoning. If TOD is in the middle of the night, how can cox and M. Lewis be right?

[Abby Normal]

Hi,
Thanks Jerry D.
We know the bonnet was most likely Mrs Harvey's as she stated she told Mary''I shall be leaving my bonnet then''...also Mrs Prater saw Kelly wearing the said jacket and said bonnet at 9PM, at the bottom of the passage, they engaged conversation.
Strangely at midnight, Mrs Cox sees Kelly wearing different clothing..?
In order for the Velvet jacket, and bonnet, to have become bloodstained, they either were on the bed, when she was attacked, or Kelly was wearing them when attacked.
If she was wearing them ,she must have changed back into the smart outfit after returning home with Blotchy...unless Cox was lying?
If she went to sleep , and was attacked, the clothing must have been local to the bed.
Either way we are posed the question...
Why did the killer burn these items ..because they were bloodstained..?
It has to be relevant to the murderer.
Scenario..Mary Kelly is alive in daylight, she is seen by Maxwell , and Maurice Lewis as witnessed, she then goes home to get ready to go to the Lord Mayors parade, and when dressed welcomes a person into her room. who kills her whilst wearing that outfit..
The killer who may have a cast iron night alibi, wishes to give the impression she was killed during the night, therefore burns these objects,that might give cause for doubt...
Regards Richard.

there were no confirmed sightings of Mary from 8:00 (Barnett)till 11:45 (Cox).

Praters account is not on the police/inquest record as seeing mary at 9:00.

Where is the account of "blood Stained" clothes you keep mentioning?

Also, even if Prater did see her at 9:00 with bonnet and jacket on, she was near home so she could have just taken them off, put them in her place and then ventured out.

[curious4]

Hi C4
Oh dear...maybe I'll pop to the local kebab house at 6 tomorrow morning...oops no,I can't, they're not open... They cater for evenings and pub closing.
It's more than an educated guess really,is blindingly obvious a better term...

Ah well, case closed then.

C4

[packers stem]

Sorry, but an educated guess will not give us an accurate TOD.

C4

Hi C4
Oh dear...maybe I'll pop to the local kebab house at 6 tomorrow morning...oops no,I can't, they're not open... They cater for evenings and pub closing.
It's more than an educated guess really,is blindingly obvious a better term...

[curious4]

Sorry, but an educated guess will not give us an accurate TOD.

C4

[packers stem]

Don't really see how we can get an accurate TOD if we don't know exactly what time she ate.

C4

Hi C4
It's true we can't know exactly but an educated guess at a fish supper is after the pubs closed.
From about 3 or 4 or so it wouldn't have been available to buy,the street vendors after this time were catering for people on their way to work with coffee and a light breakfast(piece of bread?)

[curious4]

The TOD is correct,this is determined by the Fish supper... I've no doubt that maxwell and Maurice Lewis(twice) were also correct....
...and back to the dishevelled looking woman seen by Kennedy

Don't really see how we can get an accurate TOD if we don't know exactly what time she ate.

C4

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
Thanks Jerry D.
We know the bonnet was most likely Mrs Harvey's as she stated she told Mary''I shall be leaving my bonnet then''...also Mrs Prater saw Kelly wearing the said jacket and said bonnet at 9PM, at the bottom of the passage, they engaged conversation.
Strangely at midnight, Mrs Cox sees Kelly wearing different clothing..?
In order for the Velvet jacket, and bonnet, to have become bloodstained, they either were on the bed, when she was attacked, or Kelly was wearing them when attacked.
If she was wearing them ,she must have changed back into the smart outfit after returning home with Blotchy...unless Cox was lying?
If she went to sleep , and was attacked, the clothing must have been local to the bed.
Either way we are posed the question...
Why did the killer burn these items ..because they were bloodstained..?
It has to be relevant to the murderer.
Scenario..Mary Kelly is alive in daylight, she is seen by Maxwell , and Maurice Lewis as witnessed, she then goes home to get ready to go to the Lord Mayors parade, and when dressed welcomes a person into her room. who kills her whilst wearing that outfit..
The killer who may have a cast iron night alibi, wishes to give the impression she was killed during the night, therefore burns these objects,that might give cause for doubt...
Regards Richard.

[packers stem]

More press nonsense.
The police believed the murder was committed in the middle of the night as per TOD that they got from the doctors.

They were looking for suspects, Blotchy and A-man, provided by witnesses who saw these men at night.

Maxwell basically got blown off by the police and coroner because they didn't believe mary was still alive in daylight per the drs TOD and above said witnesses. Besides she didn't provide anything significant in the way of suspects any way.

Where in the police record does it say they found bloodstained clothes in Marys room or in the fireplace?

The TOD is correct,this is determined by the Fish supper... I've no doubt that maxwell and Maurice Lewis(twice) were also correct....
...and back to the dishevelled looking woman seen by Kennedy